I am English and i always will be. This causes one big problem, Amy - my girl friend who is particulary welsh is opposed to the 'English' on the basis of how we have oppressed her fellow countrymen over the last 500 years, raped her fair country in terms of stripping its natural resources and taking land to name but a few.

At its peak, the British Empire was the largest formal empire that the world had ever known. As such, its power and influence stretched all over the globe; shaping it in all manner of ways

No i have never had a problem with being English and will not have at any point in the foreseable future. Now every country will have something in its history that it is not proud of but that is not the point of this thread. It is seemingly an argument that will not be won on the basis that by being English does not make me bad

It seems that within the Uk we have the Irish, the Welsh and the Scottish who all seem to be partaking in some sort of renaissance of their culture and identity whilst at the same time English nationalism is something looked up with disregard. Why is this ?? what is your nationality and would you say you had a national identity, are you prioud to be [insert nationality here] ?

I have been proud of being English and this is something that i have never questioned until recethly when i have wondered why. So until such time, what are you thoughts on this ??

/me stands up hand clutched to chest

I Rustneversleeps is pround to be an Englishman.

/cue tears

i do find that the English ( mainly people from the South East ) tend to be very jealous of the Welsh, Scottish and Irish due to our rich celtic heritage, and our common unity as a people.

It's the whole fucking underdog thing isn't it too?
Thats why anti Americanism is so popular.
Most English people would prefer to be the underdogs,weve just got that sort of mentality.
I think we really dont relate to a lot of our past either ,we dont feel anything like the people who we read about.
Sorry to generalise so much with the we's.
Having said all this i'm fine with being English.

daidavies spouted:
i do find that the English ( mainly people from the South East ) tend to be very jealous of the Welsh, Scottish and Irish due to our rich celtic heritage, and our common unity as a people.

No, it's your talent for close harmony singing.

national identity, do i want one?

daidavies spouted:
....... Irish ...... and our common unity as a people.

i'm sure Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley will be pleased to hear that

Here's a wee article on Partiotism, on a similar sorta theme
by Emma Goldmann, written in 1911

http://www.connix.com/~harry/emma.htm

WHAT is patriotism? Is it love of one's birthplace, the place of childhood's recollections and hopes, dreams and aspirations ? Is it the place where, in childlike naivete, we would watch the fleeting clouds, and wonder why we, too, could not run so swiftly? The place where we would count the milliard glittering stars, terror-stricken lest each one "an eye should be," piercing the very depths of our little souls? Is it the place where we would listen to the music of the birds, and long to have wings to fly, even as they, to distant lands? Or the place where we would sit at mother's knee, enraptured by wonderful tales of great deeds and conquests ? In short, is it love for the spot, every inch representing dear and precious recollections of a happy, joyous, and playful childhood?
If that were patriotism, few American men of today could be called upon to be patriotic, since the place of play has been turned into factory, mill, and mine, while deafening sounds of machinery have replaced the music of the birds. Nor can we longer hear the tales of great deeds, for the stories our mothers tell today are but those of sorrow, tears, and grief.

What, then, is patriotism? "Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of scoundrels," said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses; a trade that guarantees better returns and greater glory than that of the average workingman.

Gustave Herve, another great anti-patriot, justly calls patriotism a superstitionHone far more injurious, brutal, and inhumane than religion. The superstition of religion originated in man's inability to explain natural phenomena. That is, when primitive man heard thunder or saw the lightning, he could not account for either, and therefore concluded that back of them must be a force greater than himself. Similarly he saw a supernatural force in the rain, and in the various other changes in nature. Patriotism, on the other hand, is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.

Indeed, conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.

The inhabitants of the other spots reason in like manner, of course, with the result that, from early infancy, the mind of the child is poisoned with bloodcurdling stories about the Germans, the French, the Italians, Russians, etc. When the child has reached manhood, he is thoroughly saturated with the belief that he is chosen by the Lord himself to defend his country against the attack or invasion of any foreigner.

D-Raled is the phrase we-re looking for there :)

Having been born and raised outside my fine capital to a Scottish father and some Irish blood droplets sloshing around my veins somewhere. My national identity is something I have to think about, my nationality is British, so I might just stick with that.

I am the kind of person that hugo-a-gogo would describe as "a guid Schoatsman wi e's heid bashed in" (my father's description of 'pure-bred' Goerdies, who, in spite of the great haughty-taughtiness of London towards the North East, see themselves as English)

This means that I cheer on England but also Scotland (if a little less loudly) in sport and have a fondness for Wales and Ireland (Northern and Republic) too. I have very little time for this Tartan Army crap or indeed the Eng-er-land boozy and fighty shite that mars us abroad, and tend to keep my gob shut should England and Scotland play each other. I am heartily sick of Scotland's grudge towards the English (which seems very apparent in many things, particularly sport) and to be honest, I feel more aligned towards my region than my country, more for 'Northumbria' than either Scotland (the land of my father that I have only visited briefly) or England (a country that yes is the place of my birth, but I was born and raised on the far Northern reaches of that country that tends to forget that it stretches beyond the outer reaches of its own capital)

I suppose in the end, my national identity is British, with a tendancy to wish more power for Northern England over Southern Enlgand (which are as different a country to each other as England is to Scotland, IMHO)

Here's to a Northumbrian Social Democratric Republic

i'd just like to point out that i wouldn't say that

what exactly is the tartan army crap? following a football team and having a good time without getting arrested or beating anyone up?

scotlands grudge towards the english? in sport this is no more than rivalry and wanting to get one over on a bigger neighbour. bit like man city - man utd. many scots also are sick of the condescending attitude from england

Until last century the whole idea of a nation-state is to repel the dreaded furriner (which in England over the past few hundred years includes the Pope). Now - certainly since WW2 - the nation-state exists to provide its citizens with as much service and opportunity as possible.

Tories don't recognise that shift has taken place, and witter on about irrelevant crap like giving as much money as possible to Prince Edward. The chief weakness of conservatism is that it can't distinguish between a fundamental shift and a passing fad

Hugo...

The tartan army crap seems to be the desire to see England lose in everything, to be honest, I don't get that, might have something to do with being raised away from the capital to a father who did describe Geordies as Scotsmen with their heads bashed in (a description I took exception to seeing as he married and raised one)

and I also said that I have no time for the English habit of getting drunk and beating peopl up when abroad, it'san embarrassment.

And the condescending attitude, you see that as an attitude coming from England, I see that same attitude aimed towards the North from London and the South. Swings and Roundabouts...?

and geo, you like to see, lets say Germany as an example, win at any sport?

why do scotland fans have to support england? do other countries fans support england? as in my earlier example, do man city fans cheer on united in european games?

hugo-a-gogo spouted:


i'm sure Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley will be pleased to hear that

Here's a wee article on Partiotism, on a similar sorta theme


I just love fools who quote people they don't know, and have never met.
Could you not say it yourself??????
Hmmmm.....go on steal words from someone else.

daidavies spouted:


I just love fools who quote people they don't know, and have never met.
Could you not say it yourself??????

But Diamond, that's (I' guessing) the reason he used it - cos it said what he wanted to say better.

And is it OK to quote people you know? Why?

On topic, I'm a European first and a Geordie second.

Here's to any Republic between the Tyne & the Tweed.

daidavies spouted:


hugo-a-gogo spouted:


i'm sure Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley will be pleased to hear that

Here's a wee article on Partiotism, on a similar sorta theme



I just love fools who quote people they don't know, and have never met.
Could you not say it yourself??????
Hmmmm.....go on steal words from someone else.

correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't you just quote me, you nob?

btw, nobody is jealous of the welsh

hugo-a-gogo spouted:



I just love fools who quote people they don't know, and have never met.
Could you not say it yourself??????
Hmmmm.....go on steal words from someone else.

correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't you just quote me, you nob?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh yeah. Oops!

Kinda knocks my argument on the head. :)

We are all Gods children, Even the Welsh !

I was born in liverpool so i'm English.

but

My father and mother are both Irish, so I'm pure irish blood.

Which should win? or am I Ireglish....

i am a human being first, and English second. i dont own the land i live on neither does it own me. i dont think there is any such thing as pure english. i know a tiny part of my heritage is Jewish but that doesnt define me as a person. if we are talking about us having pride in where we live then i will hold up my hand

I count my self as English.
Why does it always come down to sport??
I am sick of people saying "oh you should support him he's English."
(about Richard Burns)
Engurland football fans I want no part of that shit.
But then I see all the Welsh flags at the rally cheering for Phil Mills and I kinda wish I could get that worked up for one of my country men.
but I cant because they are all shit.

TEAM EDNA spouted:
"oh you should support him he's English."
(about Richard Burns)


I thought he was a Scottish poet? ;)

/me is Scottish, European, and British

though I dont like it how many forigners (especially americans (i.e. from the USA)) think that britain == england

I am sure people from the states wouldnt like to be called canadian, or the english caled french (but thiose countries are next to each other, and part of a bigger group)

I dont worry about a National Identity, my identity is just me.

Yeah i was born in England so i support England, but i never wish for the Welsh, Scottish or Irish to lose. Just the same that i never hope another club team loses either.

I just go about my business and dont care for where people come from because everyone is different and you cant form an opinion of someone until you know them.

Oh im also a mixture anyway of Welsh and Irish...so errrmm....well really that means fuck all haha.

Yorkshire and proud

Oh god! i must be the scum of all....

Not only am i English, but i'm "southern" English

Sorry for all the opression but it really wasnt me :)

I'm proud, we certainly havnt been angels over the course of history, but i do get an enormous sense of pride when we achieve something good be it sporting or otherwise.

I cheered when we beat the French on saturday, i cheer when a Scot, Welsh, Irish do well in the olympics under the banner of Great Britain, and i cheered when Europe won the Ryder cup.

But! i also want Wales and Scotland to get dicked at Footy this week, but thats because i want the bragging rights :D

bragging about being gubbed by denmark?

A book I read about the IRA and the senseless drive-by killings, if an catholic was assumed to be in a protsy neighborhood, see bubba knows all.
I saw vice coppers arrest / hancuff sumt pimps/drug dealers tonight--they don't play

Well, I've no problem with being English (or indeed British). Be honest the Union Jack is one fine looking flag, and it would be a shame to loose it. Who cares what happened hundreds of years ago when values were on a different planet to today. I don't see why our generation should feel any guilt over the past, in fact looking at the power we had in relation to our size we were quite the kiddies. Lets face it cruelty was a way of life then, but we still did a lot of good in what would probably still be very backward countries without our intervention.

American :P

Royster spouted:
I dont worry about a National Identity, my identity is just me.
I agree with you. It's the life you live and the people and situations you come into contact with which shape you, but there is something inside each of us that makes us who we are, that's your identity, not where your from.

I take it all back .
Having just sat and watched the rugby. I have got to admit seeing England win is fucking fannytastic.

Still cant get worked up over footy tho :/

English nationalism is something looked up with disregard. Why is this ??

because those fucking BNP pricks have tried to hi-jack it so much.

Yes I am proud of being english for all the RIGHT reasons. I cant stand racism on any level and I think the best part of being a true englishman/woman is the fact we really are such a fair and impartial race. Its the dregs of our society like the BNP etc. that tarnish an otherwise beautiful and creative(have you noticed how much influence we have musically on a global scale!) country.

If youve been around the world a bit you would notice how drawn the local people of any country are to you just because you have that english accent and its for a good reason.(the tourist traps of spain excluded there lol ) They know that on the whole you are well mannered and tolerant of their culture and have a genuine curiousity about their way of life.

I know we have a very chequered history but what the fuck can we do about that!?
*climbs off his little cyber-soapbox.....for now* ;)

Me, I'm Irish, and Proud of it aswell,
even if our country is run by a bunch of fuckin morons who would rather buy a new jet for themselves than fix up some major problems with our society.

carrying on a bit from a discussion in the Queen Liz thread on Mick Hucknall

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/3237106.stm

But some councillors in Glasgow claim the union flag has sectarian connotations in the west of Scotland, while the national anthem, God Save the Queen, is offensive to Scots.

I'm Irish and proud of it. But I don't hate anyone from being from another country. It's very easy to blame people for what their country did in the past but it's a different world now. We're all European's now, the majority of us have one currency and we can travel to different countries to work and play extremely easily.

So Irish and European. :)

On a lil aside:
drnoble spouted:
bthough I dont like it how many forigners (especially americans (i.e. from the USA)) think that britain == england
When I was in New Orleans, we were trying to find somewhere to watch the rugby cos Ireland was playing France but found nowhere. We only found out we lost cos one of the news stations had news scrolling on the bottom which said "the semi-finalists in the rugby world cup are Austrailia Vs New Zealand and Britan vs France"

fireboy spouted:


It seems that within the Uk we have the Irish, the Welsh and the Scottish who all seem to be partaking in some sort of renaissance of their culture and identity whilst at the same time English nationalism is something looked up with disregard.







ok now i'm irish my dad is english so i bear no ill will over the last 800 yrs. but i will say this for the last 50 or so yrs (1948) we have been a republic WE ARE NOT PART OF THE UNITED KINGDOM NOT ANY MORE.

you'l have to explain this to each other i'm sure but i hate it the english somehow manage to forget that we are a republic and NOT a colony like scotland or wales or canada.

so all together now A REPUBLIC. THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND the republic bit isnt just there for fun you know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

deedee spouted:
the english somehow manage to forget that we are a republic and NOT a colony like scotland or wales or canada.

Ummm, how exactly are Scotland and Wales colonies?

For whats it's worth, I'm 4/8 Scots, 3/8 English and 1/8 Welsh but 100% European.

I consider myself to be 100% Yorkshire. Not English or British or European, but Yorkshire....

I would consider myself to have some sort of bastardized one.

I dunno...I dont really define myself by what patch of land I live on, although I admit that the land has, in part, shaped me. I didnt know it before, but damn near anywhere I travel, people can recognise my Texas accent...so I guess its something I couldnt get rid of if I tried.

I can see myself as a patriot...in the sense that I love my country for the ideals it (apparently) embodies...although they may have perhaps fallen by the wayside as of late...but I do take a sick sort of comfort in knowing that we arent the only country making such a mistake.

Really what bothers me the most is people thinking that patriotism is blind obedience. I dont think there is anything more useless to a country than middle-class, flag-toting, soccer mom drones...this country was built on questioning authority and standing up for what we believe is right, and for someone to believe the president's word is gospel regardless of their own opinion is incredibly stupid.

Dont even get me started on American political parties...

KenTheSlayer spouted:
IReally what bothers me the most is people thinking that patriotism is blind obedience. I dont think there is anything more useless to a country than middle-class, flag-toting, soccer mom drones...this country was built on questioning authority and standing up for what we believe is right, Dont even get me started on American political parties...

True, Germany and WW2 is a good example.

I'd always count myself as Scottish but I'm not anti-English or anything.

wannabepornstar spouted:


Ummm, how exactly are Scotland and Wales colonies?

For whats it's worth, I'm 4/8 Scots, 3/8 English and 1/8 Welsh but 100% European.

yes they are so too colonies.

they are countries in their own right yet ruled by another country, wot would you call it?

anyway my point was ireland is not part of the U.K. and alot of the engish fail to realise that. goddamn it we fought a war to become a republic and not be part of the U.K.

if anything, england is a scottish colony
James VI of scotland (a scot) claimed the throne of england and was crowned James I of england. so scotland occupied england :D

(btw the current queen is Elizabeth I of scotland)

hmmmmm i see where your coming from
your being quite technical there. but still scotland is effectively ruled by england

ps i really like your picture of the sword tis good well done petal

im not particulay proud to be english (british) whatever, more glad than anything i mean theres a lot of bad countries (china, North Korea) out there! that dont have the luxuries that we take for granted!
if only more people took oscar wildes quote to heart......Patriotism is the virtue of the viscous.
then maybe free thinkin people of the world could come to a consensus that nationalism is obstructive to compromise.

I dont worry about a National Identity, my identity is just me.

This doesn't mean that patriotism doesn't affect you, it means that you can't recognise or do anything about the negative effects of patriotism.

I'm patriotic because I think that our country not only embodies positive ideals but lives them more fully than most countries.

deedee spouted:

so all together now A REPUBLIC. THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND the republic bit isnt just there for fun you know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You actually believe we would want a colony like Ireland?

In fact, i dont go much on colonies myself, i'm all for home rule for everyone, but if i had to pick which countries to have as colonies Ireland would be at the bottom of my list.

1 ~ too much religious errmmm stuff catholic protestant, who knows who cares. But hey!! lets stone each others children, that'll work!!

2 ~ you win the eurovision far too frequently

3 ~ you cant grow potatoes (English love chips)

4 ~ leprechauns

5 ~ St patricks day

Nah........you make a great republic :D in fact, every English person i have ever spoke to about Ireland are glad of the fact that we dont have to govern you and live in hope that Northern Ireland will once again become part of your republic. God only knows what English people you have spoken to in the past

Born in Scotland with 100% scottish blood (to my knowledge). However, I was brought up in the south east (Hertfordshire, prime commuter belt). I have no sense of local identity."ohh, whoop-de-doo, you lived in Snorbens too!"
Like to see Scotland do well in the internation sporting area (a very rare occurence I grant), but nice to see England do well too, if only the fans could learn more than two lines of the fucking chariot chanty stuff.

PS Now living in the West Midlands, which is a wank place to be.

I prefer to see my self as a citizen of the world. I always thought more of countries as abstractions rather than real and tangible. Could never get myself worked up over lines on a map.

You wouldent beileve how angry people have got with me because of it. A friend of mine who shares the same sort of idea had a girl in tears when he explained his theory. I just find the whole thing of nationalism and national pride baffeling.

Probably because Im young and stupid.

hugo-a-gogo spouted:
(btw the current queen is Elizabeth I of scotland)

no, shes german, the bloodlines have changed a few times since the 1600's

Loose_end spouted:
1 ~ too much religious errmmm stuff catholic protestant, who knows who cares. But hey!! lets stone each others children, that'll work!!

Can I point out that since Northern Ireland is not part of the Republic of Ireland that you're first point makes no sense what so ever.

smurfsey spouted:

Can I point out that since Northern Ireland is not part of the Republic of Ireland that you're first point makes no sense what so ever.

And mores the pity it isnt, Northern Ireland should be a part of the republic. I thought it made plenty of sense, Ireland (the Northern part) is not something i feel should be a part of Britain, they have serious religious issues that most of Britain doesnt understand (nor want too) The republic of Ireland should include Northern ireland, its your country, i'm sure the majority of people on the British Isles would want this, as i'm sure would the majority of Irish people

The problem with the North doesn't all stem just from religious differences even though that is mainly how the media portray it. There is alot of history involved, mistakes made by various politicans throughout the years, but there are also some economical issues for the people of the North. For example, the price of living in the Republic is insane, the politicians are all corrupt and all basic servies (health, education, social welfare) are all shit. It's sounds like it should be easy enough to just give the 6 counties back, but there is a good proportion of people in the North who feel they are british and not Irish. Not all of them are Protestants, just like not all Nationalists are Catholic.

The main mistake is that there's no leadership that says: we have to rise above this or we're all fucked. Every now and then there's some sort of tentative agreement and a few nice words, then the hard boys get antsy. Instead of the majority of people standing up and saying no more, we're not having this, they sit back and let the shitheads blast away. Then they sit in pubs and listen to dirges about the heroes who shoot little children. That's why the best view of Belfast is the one over your shoulder with the knowledge that you'll never see it again.

Also, deedee, I thought the Republic of Ireland had been around since not long after the FIRST World War, INDIA became independant in (roundabout) 1948.

Also, liked the way you tarred all English people with the same brush in regarding that we don't recognise your country as separate to ours, alongside your unbalanced view about Scotland and Wales being colonies of England, looks like you have a major chip on your shoulder regarding us.

I'm an Enlgishman, I've always been aware that the South is different to the North and that you aren't part of the UK, but you seem to prove every Irish joke that Bernard Manning has ever cracked...thanks for that.

Cor_innit - it would help if the people of Northern Ireland didn't keep voting the hard boys in, that's the beauty of democracy, you get what you vote for!

And if you vote for those banging on about seperation and sellouts, who actively permeate hatred towards who worship at a different Church to you, then you get bombings, the Army moving back in, and another generation of Troubles that everyone thought nobody wanted anymore...

the 'irish free state' was founded in 1922 making 26 counties of ireland independent of britain
on easter monday 1949 ireland split from the british commonwealth and became the republic of ireland

That's me told then, thanks for the facts Hugo!

reading these, has drawn comparisons to my city of cleveland Ohio, usa. but it's easy to say it's 'black and white'. explaining the demise of our fair city. ie schools, welfare, crime, housing--ever see hundreds and thousands of homeless men, women and children in a single day?

Geo: you're right, the voters of NI keep voting in fuckheads and expecting the rest of Britain to bail them out. But it would be nice if there was a clear alternative, a real leader rather than some twat with bloodstains on his hands.

Lets get one thing straight for once and for all. Northern Ireland is totally separate country to the Republic Of Ireland, just like Belgium is to Holland. I know a few people catholic and prodestant from the North who just want to move out as soon as possible because of idiot who such as the Real IRA and Ian Paisley who just wont stop moaning. If Britian were to hand over the six northern counties there would be civil war. And you don't prodestants and Catholics in the Republic killing each other, do you??? Im Irish and I think most English people are dead sound but because of history and rivalry I DO support the teams playing against England in any sport and I get very patricotic when Ireland are playing in big touraments such as the world cup and Olympics. Its just natural if your Irish. With a population of just 3.5 million look at what we have achived in the past 50 years. Also I think the Royal family is a total joke and of course so is our own government.

crush proof - really?

and I thought we were all noe big Brotherhood of Man :))

and I thought we were all noe big Brotherhood of Man
:haha: :))

crush proof spouted:
Lets get one thing straight for once and for all. Northern Ireland is totally separate country to the Republic Of Ireland, just like Belgium is to Holland. I know a few people catholic and prodestant from the North who just want to move out as soon as possible because of idiot who such as the Real IRA and Ian Paisley who just wont stop moaning.

where do the 'real ira' come from then
face it, theres just as many idiots in the republic fighting for a united ireland as in the north, if not more. walk into every pub in ireland and proclaim that the six counties aren't part of ireland and see how often you get your head kicked in. walk round south armagh telling people that they aren't irish and then try and get your kneecaps fixed

hugo-a-gogo spouted:
where do the 'real ira' come from then


Now are you talking about the original IRA that was set up before the War of Independence or the terrorist group that calls themselves the "Real" IRA?

hugo-a-gogo spouted:
walk into every pub in ireland and proclaim that the six counties aren't part of ireland and see how often you get your head kicked in.


I think that's a bit of an exaggeration

ok, try it with an english accent

i meant the ones that call themselves 'the real ira', 'continuity ira', 'provisional ira', 'i cant believe its not the ira'
they have cells in the north, but they used to run their mainland bombing campaigns from the republic

walk into every pub in ireland and proclaim that the six counties aren't part of ireland and see how often you get your head kicked in.
Hugo, in the Republic's elections Sinn Fein are lucky to pull 3% of the vote. If you go into a pub maybe you will find someone willing to make a statement, and maybe you will find someone willing to do the kicking. You'll also find 100 people having a good time who'll say to both of them: for fucksake get out of here with that bullshit, we've had more than enough of that. Now if you had that sort of attitude further north the problem would be solved.

At a point where the nation-state has weakened in importance, globally and within the EU, it is - literally - a crying shame that people have to suffer and die over nationalism of this kind, all the more miserable for being pointless.

bollocks, i'm saying there are lots of people in ireland who believe passionately that the 6 counties are irish and will argue vociferously for that point. that doesn't really reflect in sinn fein's voter turnout because people vote for local TDs for local issues. this is less the case in Dublin, always historically more pro-british, but go out to cork and limerick and galway and donegal. as i said go to every pub, see the percentage of people who agree that the 6 counties are as seperate as belgium and holland (however plenty of people will use the 'you're brits and you know you are' line to antagonise northeners)

I don't know much about the divide between protestants and catholics in Ireland, but didn't it all start when we (english) decided to colonize over there?

there was 'colonisation' in both directions since prehistory

'the love of one country leads to the hate of another.'

No-one's said anything about the cornish yet (or maybe they have I didn't read all the way through the thread)- now there's an underdog and minority! They've given us Ginsters, pasties, Rhodda's cream and erm- Philip Schofield.

oligarchy, has been sumt generous to smee, and won't bite that feeding hand, or quit sucking public titty.

The problem between Catholics and Prodestants began hundreds of years again when prodestant landlords took Irish lords land in Ulster, Munster and Leinster. One of the leading figures in this was Cromwell who said to the Irish natives "To Hell or to Connaught" as Coonaughts land was poor quaility to the other four provenices. And then came the Famine and then the push for Home Rule. The Unionists, mainly based in Ulster and Dublin argued against Home Rule. Many of these had their lands given to the peasents in the numourus land acts between 1870 and 1910. Then the Home Rule Bill was published in 1914 and was delayed due to WW1. By now the UVF and Irish volunteers were importing arms and were prepared for civil war. Then there was Easter 1916 and the war of independance. In 1920 Northern Ireland and soon the irish Free State treaty was signed resulting in civil war between members of the IRA. catholics were trated as 2nd class citizens in Northern Ireland and there was constant violence which exploded in the 1960's and the rest you all know. I think that there is so little difference between Rep Of Ireland and Britian today (music, commerce, socially etc..)that it would make little difference if the six counties were governed by the Republic.

As an American (ok for you guys that may mean all of the "new world" however for me it is U.S.A.)

We have a bit of identiy within diffenent states. yanks, (northern industrialized states, civil war based) confederates, rebels hillbillys, whatever you want to call them them = southernstates. (civil war based too.)
You have your texans, and my god they are in a class by themselves. (/me hangs on a site/co-founded one with some.)

However we generally think of ourselves as Americans.

I guess the long history of the U.K. helped add this element into your society. This thread has been helpul in understanding ya'll a bit more. But goddamn, I am still confused.

:)

I think it is inevitable that eventually the whole of the island of Ireland will be ruled from Dublin and the sooner we accept that and implement it the sooner the troubles will end.

yeah, the unionists will probably accept that and skip happily into a new future hand in hand with the republicans

The unionists will have to accept it because soon the republicans will comprise a majority of the people of voting age in the north.

Barnowl spouted:
The unionists will have to accept it because soon the republicans will comprise a majority of the people of voting age in the north.

And they will all live happily ever after?

I think not i'm afraid, but who knows :D

I'm not suggesting the unionists will like it, but there will come a day when the uk government will hold a referendum in NI on whether or not they want to remain part of the union. Because of the higher birthrate in the catholic (crudely = republican) community, the answer will be no (because they will wait until the maths work) and power will pass to Dublin.

The transition may well not be peaceful, in the same way that it may well not be peaceful if it was implemented immediately. By failing to act, however, the current unsatisfactory position is being perpetuated in the form of a failing "peace process".

My question is, would the government be behaving in a more responsible and constructive manner if it grasped the nettle and acted now, rather than subjecting the province to continuing unrest, whilst leaving it to the same eventual outcome?

you are looking at it from a purely republican view, the unionist view makes no difference to you. the government would be 'behaving responsibly and constructively' by ignoring the views of a huge part of the community?

my view is that the whole thing is more likely to be made irrelevant by greater european integration, so the border makes no difference

I'm trying to look at it from a pragmatic point of view (I'm an atheist Brummie with no Irish connection).

I'm just working backwards from what I see as being the ultimate outcome and trying to figure the best way to get there in the interests of everyone in the community.

oh well, these two will work it out anyway http://www.dogbomb.co.uk/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19239

Barnowl spouted:
I'm not suggesting the unionists will like it, but there will come a day when the uk government will hold a referendum in NI on whether or not they want to remain part of the union. Because of the higher birthrate in the catholic (crudely = republican) community, the answer will be no (because they will wait until the maths work) and power will pass to Dublin.

This assumes it is a nailed on certainty that 100% of the Catholic population will vote for reunification. I read an article by an Catholic in the North who said there was a small but significant minority of the Catholic community who regard it as an economic rather than political issue and that as the UK is a richer country they would opt to stay as a part of it.

So far as I'm concerned it makes no difference to me whether NI is part of the UK or the Republic.

American nationality is generally classed as a "civic nationality". There is also "ethnic nationalities" which are, in the case of the USA sometimes refered to as hyphenated americans (Irish-American, Jewish-American etc)

When you consider that there are over 5000 ethnic-nations in existence but only about 190 states it makes it easier to understand why conflicts break out. As for the case of Northern Ireland, consider the following:

In total there were over 3,600 deaths as a result of the conflict (between 14 July 1969 and 31 December 2001) most of which occurred in the early and mid 1970s. Civilians accounted for more than half of the fatalities. Most of those killed, 91 per cent, were male and a majority of deaths, 53 per cent, were of people under 30 years of age. Catholics were the majority of those killed, that is 43 per cent as opposed to approximately 30 per cent who were Protestant. Most of the fatalities, 59 per cent, were inflicted by Republican paramilitaries, 28 per cent were killed by Loyalist paramilitaries, and 11 per cent by the security forces. In the majority of these killings, no one was convicted. Given the population of Northern Ireland - one and a half million people - it has been estimated that the number of people closely associated to those who were killed or injured is about half the population.

I think this is a huge price to pay for the inability of the two sides to resolve their differences paecefully.

i am chinese and welsh. very proud of both sides of my ethnic origins.

I shall attend the welsh Eiesteddfordd ,this year ,as I have done every year ,even though I've never understood a word the sheep shaggers are talkin about,for the last 10 years.
The welsh language is there not for us to translate into anglo-saxan /frencho roman/celto english ,but for us to relish as an original form form of our language.
Long live the welsh language, the Eisteddfood,and little welsh lambs.
And by the way iv'e heard there will be an English version of the Eistedfod brochure this year.
Bastards

I'm welsh and very proud of the fact.

Cymru Am Byth

Barnowl spouted:
I'm not suggesting the unionists will like it, but there will come a day when the uk government will hold a referendum in NI on whether or not they want to remain part of the union. Because of the higher birthrate in the catholic (crudely = republican) community, the answer will be no (because they will wait until the maths work) and power will pass to Dublin.


BUt what if the people of N. Ireland say "we don't want to be part of the UK" and the people of the Irish Republic say "we don;t want you either"?

After having to listen to bush for eons ,you sound like einstein.

Which makes me einsteins mothers brothers next door neigbours second best freind . Who was slow at the best of times.
That last thread should have gone to another thread I was listening to ,about MR GW BUsh.
Trust me to try and two 2 things at once.

I think there´s something fundamentally doggy about being proud of ones birthplace. I mean, what a cosmic coincidence that all is...I could never take pride in something so incalculable as nationality, but... DAMN IT SIR, I REFUSE TO BE ASHAMED OF IT !!!

P.S. It´s true, the welsh are great singers, I mean... Look at Tom Jones !

Flip Gubbins spouted:
I think there´s something fundamentally doggy about being proud of ones birthplace. I mean, what a cosmic coincidence that all is...I could never take pride in something so incalculable as nationality, but... DAMN IT SIR, I REFUSE TO BE ASHAMED OF IT !!!

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being proud of ones birthplace - whether it be on a local or national level. The french are proud to be french, the germans, german - mostly and the English - English.

The problem comes in when you are unable to be proud about it or aknowledge your past.

most germans aren't particularly proud of their countries past, many french and spanish citizens feel no attachment to the nationality marked on their passports. I'm sure many people in many parts of the globe feel the same way

fireboy spouted:


The problem comes in when you are unable to be proud about it or aknowledge your past.

I think there could be something in that old(fire)boy. I mean, I am able to: In a few months for example, I´ll be sitting in front of the TV hissing "Go on Becks...Go on, bang it in!!.......And I´ll be such a dissapointment it when Kahn somehow manages to just tip the ball over the bar.



.........But I´ll hate myself in the morning.

I think that every culture has much to learn from the other, but at the same time as that and learning what these things are, I shouldn't necessarily by consequence of that have to give up my National Identity as well.

Boring answer I know. ;)

I was born and raised in Scotland although now living in the U.S. My family have always been very patriotic. I think every country should have it's national identity but at the same time should we be proud of where we come from? We didnt choose where we were born nor where our ancestors came from. Should I be proud to have red hair or brown eyes? I didnt do anything to get them. I am proud to say that I my friends for whom I work to maintain a friendship, and I am proud of the bond that I've forged with my family. I take pride in the the accomplishments of my life. What is there to take pride in as to where your roots lay?
At the same time I do feel that I identify with my homeland and with it's people. I dont feel that I share the same morals and values of the majority of the people surrounding me here in America.
All this having been said, I was raised in a family which was very pro-scottish and incredibly anti-english, and I still catch myself being inordinately pleased when a scot gets one-up on the english at any given time.

I was born in Scotland, lived here all my life. I do feel I live in a colony, but I don't think that will last through the next 10 years. As soon as there is a UK conservative govt (and it will happen again eventually) I think the tensions between Holyrood and Westminister will become too great to manage, despite the best efforts of Gauleiter McConnell.

As far as national identity is concerned though, observe a typical Celtic v Rangers came: one half have ROI flags and sing the praises of an elderly Polish man who lives in Italy. The other half wave N. Ireland flags and favour an elderly German lady who lives in England.

Very confusing. That's why the thinking Scotsman HAS to support Cowdenbeath.

CT.

I was born in England but have a Scottish name, I consider my national identity as being British. I have a lot of respect for the Scottish, of anyone they know how to make buildings which don't blow down in the wind ! It can be quite secluded in Scotland, so the work ethic, self sufficiency, things like this - are highly regarded, perhaps a little more than in England.