And we're opposed to Europe because? [Archive]

Joey Sarajevo

Dec 12, 2003, 16:36

Concrete stuff that's bad about the EU? How about a Common Agricultural Policy weighed heavily in favour of French and German landowners which, absurdly, means that while we could grow enough food to feed the world, farmer's aren't allowed too?

Or the fact that lareger countries (Spain, France, Germany and for that matter the UK as well) frequently use European law to further their own interests whilst ignoring it as and when it suits them?

Or the European Parliament being filled with more careerist corrupt fixers and yes-men than even our own?

I AM in favour of some form of European Union -and being Half-Irish and One-Eighth-Belgian I'm not ever going to really 'get' Nationalism - but I'd like one which is genuinely beneficial to the peoples of Europe, and helps to use Europe's resources and expertise to benefit those parts of the world who were driven into poverty by the very circumstances which made us so prosperous.

It's better than nothing, but it's nowhere near good enough - and I have yet to see any real-world attempts to make it better.

magicguppy

Dec 12, 2003, 17:27

The idea of joining Europe doesn't seem as scary when you live in Scotland - we're used to being ruled by a distant capital of buearocrats who talk a funny language and don't except pound notes and impose funny laws and are far superior at football.

Our comedians will get tons of material from it. Just watch Eurotrash.

fireboy

Dec 12, 2003, 17:51

Dazzla spouted:
So, anyone got any reasons that aren't based on xenophobia, ignorance and crypto-sexual bully worship?

taking that as a dig i feel it necesary to point out that in my opinion the continuation of european intergration is a bad idea.

Why i hear you say ? why oh god why ..

OK lets start with the idea of democracy, which for this purpose we can define as

"a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them"

One of the main outcomes from continued european intergration is that there will be a european superstate, say lets call it is united stated of europe (as i have heard this notion all to commonly called) Because of the size of it (just look at the rapidly expanding membership to the EU which further allows the free movement of citizens within a vast economic area) i do not believe that democracy can exist in a strcuture which is bigger than a single nation state.

Resources.

What is frances principal energy supply, nuclear energy, are they still building nuclear reactors ? no, are they due to start decommisioning a number soon ? yes, how is the energy stop gip filled ? well there are a variety of options availible to them, which are dependant upon cooperation with other countries because as a nation france has no natural energy resources, oh lets look at the constitution ..

The CBI last night warned the government that the draft European Union constitution could threaten British control of its North Sea oil and gas, and pave the way for a single European financial services regulator

The North sea resources belong to the British, why should we relinquish them ?? is it not bad enough that in no more than 40 years time we will start to see oil, coal, gas reserves dry up - this will undoubtable lead to a major shift in the global powers that be - which contry sits on one of the largest still untapped oil and gas fields ???

China.

Law

The main employers' body said the draft debated by EU foreign ministers in Naples at the weekend, threatened "fundamental and damaging interventions" on tax, employment and economic policy.

possible interventions - the British government do something that brussels does not like, oh they step in and over rule. hrmms - I am all for freedom of speech and the ideal that every singloe person should be entitled to a set of basi huiman rights, but i do think as do a lot of others that the Human righs convention is a little silly in that respect, for example you just have to look at the mountain of cases that this has prompted againt the British goevernment becuase assylum seekers were not placed where they wanted to be

Or how taxation upon citizens and industry / business would be increased to bring us in line with europe.

Defence

A single european army ?? I think that the idea of the united nations has already demonstrated that this will not work, especially when a country has a economic interest which may be harmed - take france as the most recent example. (do i really have to explain ?)

Currency - oh no that taboo subject of the €uro, do i care ?
Yes i do and do not want it, James Goldsmith, bless him had the right idea, but unlike him the voice of the people who do not want it did not go away.

Do i have deep seated hatred against all people who are not British ? Nope, do i have any white supremacist ideals which i would like to force upon the world ? No, yet again, WOuld i consider myself to be narrow minded and unable to embrace not only other cultures other than my own or change ? not at all.

- need to eat now. please go on quote me and give me your opinons, i am sure you will not disappoint

Phria The God

Dec 13, 2003, 10:34

fireboy sayeth:

Do i have deep seated hatred against all people who are not British ? Nope, do i have any white supremacist ideals which i would like to force upon the world ? No, yet again, WOuld i consider myself to be narrow minded and unable to embrace not only other cultures other than my own or change ? not at all.

But what do u think about Turkey's membership?it would be better to have a great workforce within Europe but do u really have no hatred aganist Islam?and that Turkey has a population of 75 Million..do u think that we'd overwhelm europe?and as we'r stated as USA's ally[that is a fact that i really regret]...well u don't like USA don't u?

isaac hunt

Dec 13, 2003, 10:53

I hate it when Gods get involved in earthly politics.

fireboy

Dec 13, 2003, 10:57

Ohhhhhhhhh, do i hate the nation of Islam ??? alas no, i do not, i think that Mohammed should come to earth and put a few people straight tho as i doubt that a lot of interpretations of 'his' word leading to acts in the "name of" are hardly justified or that 'he' would be too pleased - so me sever smitting is in order.

hrmm, Turkey - as a food stuff i think it is dry tasteless and uninteresting, as a country i could not coment as i am yet to visit - on its proposed EU membership i do have a few opinions ..

4. I The European Council stresses the principle of peaceful settlement of disputes in accordance with the UN Charter and urges candidate states to make every effort to resolve any outstanding border disputes and other related issues. Failing this they should within a reasonable time bring the dispute to the International Court of Justice. The European Council will review the situation relating to any outstanding disputes, in particular concerning the repercussions on the accession process and in order to promote their settlement through the ICJ, at the latest by the end of 2004.

So not only do Turkey need to sort out problems which to my best understandinf caused (Cypress, 1974) border issues are a major one to get sorted !! - personal gripe what the hell are they so busy doing in Israel / Palestine ?? there is also a major requirement to improve upon their record on human rights.

I also read that upto 60% of the two-thirds of 33 director generals of the European Commission were against Turkeys membership of the EU. A call based largely on concerns relating to the eficent operation of the country - which falls severely below that of the other 10 pencilled in to join in may.

I also fail to understand why there is such a rapid enlargement of the EU at the moment, 15 existing member countries ( Romini Prodi please make your mind up - it is Italien politics or it it the Eu you cannot have both you greedy little franco-german puppet)

Yes it would mean that a larger work force woudl be availble across the whole 'USE'* but in the current economic climate is this really something that we need ? as manufacturing continues to move towards the east, intially low tech stuff, now increasingly the higher tech products and applications the shift in employmnent more towards the secondary and tertiary sectors is seen - do we really want a situation such as that seen in Canada at the moment ????

So if i had the final say, it would be not this year - but do come back when you have made some improvements.

* Unisted State of Europe

Phria The God

Dec 13, 2003, 11:45

fireboy stated:
Ohhhhhhhhh, do i hate the nation of Islam ??? alas no, i do not, i think that Mohammed should come to earth and put a few people straight tho as i doubt that a lot of interpretations of 'his' word leading to acts in the "name of" are hardly justified or that 'he' would be too pleased - so me sever smitting is in order.

i think you are so right...if u had a fan club i'd join i think.and if i weren't a god...how can u be so wise?i thought it was impossible..for mortals of course:)
i agree to every word that you wrote in this forum.

salsa

Dec 13, 2003, 16:03

I am fairly anti Europe in my thoughts, and the following are the reasons why.

1 - If we join the Euro there is no get out clause if it goes wrong for us. It basically ties the hand of our chancellor and the bank of england on the action that they can take to protect us as a country. I cannot see how relinquishing control can be seen as a positive action.

2 - After we joined the Exchange Rate Mechanism we were forced to leave it because we couldnt naturally maintain the interest rate that we were expected to. Why do people therefore thing that 10 years on we will now be able to do the same with the Euro

3 - The Union isnt always as strong as it claims. What happened when there was an outbreak of foot and mouth? yup, France illegally stopped transport of animals, which was against EU law, yet no action was taken.

4 - Another topic which is causing many issues are the fishing quotas. Whilst I undestand that action has to be taken to prevent the seas being fished to destruction why on earth are we throwing fish back to the sea to die because it trawler them in would be illegal?

I have also had to sign out of the European Working Time Directive. This is because at certain times of the year my job becomes un doable in my normal working hours. Being commited to providing a high standard of service that means I work extra house when needed to ensure that our customers are as happy as they can be. This directive would have stopped me being able to do this.

Marx

Dec 13, 2003, 19:06

What surprises me most is the concept people have of democracy. Democracy doesn't work outside a VILLAGE, let alone a country. Democracy, a true democracy, involves all the citezens voting on EVERY single issue. A system whereby elected officials do the voting is a republic, I can't stress this enough. This happens lots when the amreican't defend their "democracy". Damn republics!

fireboy

Dec 13, 2003, 19:09

Marx spouted:
What surprises me most is the concept people have of democracy.

better than a communist state and as if an autocracy would work.

thus enters the idea of an elected body to do the will of the people for the people (well the majority - but you cannot please everyone :) )

Manta7

Dec 13, 2003, 19:33

Fireboy you made some very good points. Interesting read and basically sums up my thoughts on Europe. Salsa made some good points too.

Phria The God

Dec 14, 2003, 08:02

Democracy is simply the best kind of state we currently have.
maybe later there will be new ideas but we all seen that autocracy,communism and all other i couldn't remember didn't work.

bubbavirus

Dec 14, 2003, 09:06

france wants scarfs off students in school. sort thaat mess
sees theological uneasy-ness in Europes immediate future.

Bungeeboy

Dec 14, 2003, 10:48

Apologies for the fact that this reply is likely to be bloody long, but well.... it is. :)

I think that one thing that is important to do is to seperate the 2 issues of European integration, and whether or not the UK is the best place in the world. Some people seem to be getting the 2 things a bit muddy in this thread. If you want to have a debate about why England or the UK is or isn't the best place to live, then take a look at this thread: http://www.dogbomb.co.uk/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15346

European integration is never going to be a clear cut subject, what is good for one individual, or one business is detrimental to another. But personally on the whole I believe that a closer Europe would be a good thing.

I was just about to quote and answer the points of Wildmurphy and Isaac, but then I realised that would be pointless: "i think the point is were not european - and thats about it, the english people dont like change.", says it all really.

As far as I am aware, England hasn't recently moved to it's current position in the world, it has always been anchored off of France, and therefore is part of Europe geographically, in addition to this major trade with the rest of continental Europe has taken place for centuries, including a number of formal treaties and agreements, there is nothing new about the idea of European integration, it is just that in the modern world, the populous has access to information about it, instead of having to blindly follow the desires of their government or monarch.

fireboy spouted:
One of the main outcomes from continued european intergration is that there will be a european superstate, say lets call it is united stated of europe

This is one possible conclusion of continued integration, but I do not think that it is the only or by any means the obvious one. I think that the citizens of Europe who are the most in favour of an integrated continent would be loath to see a single superstate. In addition to this, there are far too many power hungry leaders who I feel it is unlikely would wish to diminish thier own power.

I agree though that this is a bad idea, such a sizeable state would be impossible to govern well, and democracy would become even more of a farce than it currently is. A perfect example of this can be seen by taking a look at the USA.

fireboy spouted:
possible interventions - the British government do something that brussels does not like, oh they step in and over rule. hrmms - I am all for freedom of speech and the ideal that every singloe person should be entitled to a set of basi huiman rights,

I will agree that the current system is fatally flawed, but I do definately think that the right to appeal to a higher court in Europe should be retained. This is something that needs to be improved rather than disbanded. In addition to this there has to be a common policy on Human Rights, Terrorism, Asylum, etc.

fireboy spouted:
A single european army ?? I think that the idea of the united nations has already demonstrated that this will not work

A single army supported by a number of States is clearly never going to work, there is always the chance of internal disputes, and how can one army fight against itself. I do think however that an integrated European defense force, in the style of UN peacekeeping forces, would be much more useful than the UN forces, as they are simply too large a bureacracy to be useful. I say create a European force in their place.

Phria The God spouted:
But what do u think about Turkey's membership?

I have no problem at all with the fact that Turkey is an Islamic country, I actually believe that one of the greatest things to come from European integration is the diversification of culture, and this includes religion.

I do believe that Turkey has a number of issues that need to be addressed with it's own governance and it's human rights, before it should be allowed to join Europe.

My biggest fear though is that Europe is set on a course to become far too big too quickly. History has shown time and time again that Empires or affiliations that become too large fall uneder their own weight.

This post is to be continued, but I need to go and eat something.

Bungeeboy

Dec 14, 2003, 11:08

I was going to write another huge long post, addressing some more points. But instead I think I will just take an ickle quote from above.

Joey Sarajevo spouted:
It's better than nothing, but it's nowhere near good enough

This basically sums up my point of view, the question as far as I am concerned is not whether or not the EU should exist and progress, but how it can progress and improve in a way that improves the lives of its citizens. I believe that it can do this, but also that there is a hell of a lot of work to do along the way.

salsa

Dec 14, 2003, 11:25

Bungeeboy spouted:
I will agree that the current system is fatally flawed, but I do definately think that the right to appeal to a higher court in Europe should be retained. This is something that needs to be improved rather than disbanded. In addition to this there has to be a common policy on Human Rights, Terrorism, Asylum, etc.

I compeltely agree with this, and to be honest I would like to see us as a country offer greater assistance to true asylum seekers as I would love to think that if I was in trouble there would be somewhere I can run to.

However, it doesnt work like that and as was seen with the sengat camp other countries will just let the asylum seekers do as they wish. It still amazes me to this day that to get the French to relocate the sengat camp away from the entrance to the channel tunnel we had to agree to take all of the people who were in it at the time??

My main concerns come from the fact that if we stick to rules and regulations other countries wont leaving us at a disadvantage.

Bungeeboy

Dec 14, 2003, 12:09

That is true, and it is the single biggest barrier to a EU that works, it seems that we need to find a way to enforce compliance to these rulings, but how to do that is the question.

hugo-a-gogo

Dec 15, 2003, 09:28

Bungeeboy spouted:
I have no problem at all with the fact that Turkey is an Islamic country, I actually believe that one of the greatest things to come from European integration is the diversification of culture, and this includes religion.

turkey is a secular country, the fact that most of it's people class themselves as muslims should be neither here nor there

Manta7

Dec 15, 2003, 10:46

Dazzla spouted:
Ok, here's what happened this morning:

An email went round today that all permanent members of staff were to have their holiday entitlement increased by five days a year, taking the minimum total to 25 days, which is, of course, five weeks.

There were whoops of delight at what was seen as an act of massive magnanimity.

I felt like pointing out that in France and Germany the statutory holiday entitlement is 40 days. They would consider 25 days to be unbearably mean and no-one would work for such a company.

So, my question is: for your average worker, isn't voting against European employment law and social contracts a bit like turkeys voting for an extension of Christmas? Why do we assume that the interests of big business must always coincide with our own when they so seldom do?

Dazzla, you really know how to cheer up your fellow work colleagues while smugly gloating about your three months holiday. Such a meanie.

I have been fortunate enough to live and work in Europe during the nineties (Denmark and Austria). I enjoyed my time abroad so I'm not anti-European by any means, but I do believe that further integration to create a Euro Superstate would be unworkable. And nothing has persuaded me to think otherwise. Futhermore there has simply not been enough free literature explaining to people the benefits of an integrated Europe. The Government has not done enough to promote their case for further integration, yet they expect us to accept any laws which give more control over our affairs to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. And by refusing a referendum on the matter only makes the people think they're being sold out. So it's no wonder why so many people are sceptical about a Euro Superstate. This coincides with French strikers blocking our channel ports damaging our businesses, their Government refusing to sell our beef when it's declared safe, the Spanish over fishing in our waters reducing fish stocks to their lowest ever levels leaving our fisheries in crisis, German and French people speaking out against the Euro with Sweden and Denmark voting against joining, differences of opinion with the USA, a planned Euro Army undermining NATO ultimately differences of opinion between the main leaders and so on and so forth. And as metioned once we become a European Superstate there's no going back. It's not very encouraging is it?

Personally I am satisified to have 25 days holiday a year. I know lots of people who by the end of the year have holiday left over. Believe it or not there are people who enjoy work and prefer that to sitting at home watching daytime TV. And if you ask me I think 40 days holiday is very excessive.

Bungeeboy

Dec 15, 2003, 10:55

Manta7 spouted:
Believe it or not there are people who enjoy work and prefer that to sitting at home watching daytime TV. And if you ask me I think 40 days holiday is very excessive.

Believe it or not, there are people who can think of far better ways to use their holiday than sitting at home watching daytime TV.

[/off topic]

bleater

Dec 15, 2003, 11:06

Anyone see the money programme the other night. For those who didn't the good old UK is embarking on a programme to build new Power Stations now that the old coal fired ones are being de-commissioned. Given that North Sea reserves of Gas have almost run out and a large percentage of our current usage is already imported from Europe, guess what kind of Power Stations we're building, yep gas fired.

I suggest if we want to keep our houses warm and our Hospitals working we better become friends with our new neighbours in Poland and Russia.

speedball

Dec 15, 2003, 11:48

it is worth noting that whilst we have stayed out of Europe our economy has flourished compared to the Euro bloc,whose resourses are to be futher drained by the soon to be included eastern bloc countries...why would we want to join a system that would see our tax money being drained into the coffers of the poorer nations? The analogy that has been pointed out is that if we have a tank of water with a partition down the middle,one side full and the other side half full,what happens if the partition is lifted? Both sides do not gain,one side fills more and the other side lowers to create an equal and much lower level for all...no thank you.

Dazzla

Dec 15, 2003, 15:45

Ok, this thread seems to have run away without me, but a couple of points:

it is worth noting that whilst we have stayed out of Europe our economy has flourised compared to the Euro bloc,whose resourses are to be futher drained by the soon to be included eastern bloc countries
Our economy has stayed 'competitive' because we have slashed real pay and destroyed conditions at the expense of the irdinary people who run our economy. Pension funds and health schemes have been raided to pay for shortfalls in accounts and to prop up companies who really should have gone to the wall a long time ago. In France and Germany, the different bsuiness philosophy that says that you give back to the community, you re-invest in your business and you treat your workers and customers with respect and care is enshrined in law. This means that any economic slowdown will be felt there more keenly, but that these firms are best placed to take advantage of the upturn as soon as it appears because they have not depleted their staff or resource levels, meaning that they have retained the best staff and do not have to re-tool.

...why would we want to join a system that would see our tax money being drained into the coffers of the poorer nations?

It is not a case of 'us' giving money to 'them'. It is mutual assistance. Do you think we'll be one of the richest nations in Europe forever? Do you not think that we will need help or open markets at some point? Are you so mean-spirited that you support a situation whereby half of the world starves while the other gorges itself?

speedball

Dec 15, 2003, 16:22

my main proirity is to MY wife and MY kids,i'll get round to solving world hunger after i've looked after them..

Dazzla spouted:
"Our economy has stayed 'competitive' because we have slashed real pay and destroyed conditions at the expense of the irdinary people who run our economy. Pension funds and health schemes have been raided to pay for shortfalls in accounts and to prop up companies who really should have gone to the wall a long time ago. In France and Germany, the different bsuiness philosophy that says that you give back to the community, you re-invest in your business and you treat your workers and customers with respect and care is enshrined in law. This means that any economic slowdown will be felt there more keenly, but that these firms are best placed to take advantage of the upturn as soon as it appears because they have not depleted their staff or resource levels, meaning that they have retained the best staff and do not have to re-tool."

and as for that load of cobblers mate....noooooo
We have one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe..the reason the French and Germans are so buggered at the minute is because the socialist powers have refused to modernise their working laws,and everyone there expects a job for life regardless of how well they do it...we are the only country here who rewards a job well done whereas in Europe you reward everyone no matter how poor a standard of job they do.If Europe wants a chance of being competitive in the real world (as opposed to the rose tinted utopia of a world you seem to think viable) then working practices must also become more efficient ,that includes not giving everyone a paid 40 days holiday a year....i mean really..how on earth do you think they will fund that?? you talk about pension funds going to shit..imagine the added financial strain of doubling paid holidays!! ludicrous!

Dazzla

Dec 15, 2003, 16:30

modernise their working laws

Please could ou explain exactl in concrete terms, what you mean by this?

And if you argue for shorter holidays, you will be allowed to have them. You can fuck off if you think you're arguing my holuidays down though.

Odd, isn't it, that boardroom exec pay has risen by around 500% over the last five years? I don't see them cutting down on their holidays, do you?

speedball

Dec 15, 2003, 16:57

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,2763,908282,00.html

The subsidy to what was once East Germany still runs at €75bn a year; everybody agrees that the legacy of reunification is still hobbling the economy. When faced with the argument that Germany needs a Margaret Thatcher figure to promote radical reform, Andreas Botsch says: "Britain has never had to swallow an eastern part of the country. This is what distinguishes Germany's problems from other countries."

The second thesis is that the country is in need of structural reform so that it becomes easier for firms to hire and fire, less expensive for companies to do business in Germany, and less burdensome to find a way through red tape.

"We need less bureaucracy, lower taxes and a more liberalised labour market," says Mr Henkel. "The most important thing is to loosen the grip of the unions of German society. We have laws which give the unions in Germany extraordinary power."

At Gerb, a typical German mittelstand (middle tier) company with 150 employees, Horst Schmidt says the structural problems of the economy are worse for big companies such as Siemens and Volkswagen than for firms such as his, but agrees that reform is long overdue.

"It is hard to get rid of new workers, even if they are not very good. We look very closely at whether we need an extra worker and whether it is the worker we want. We used to have drivers and people whose job it was to go out and get the breakfasts. That doesn't exist any more. Wages are too high and social contributions are too high for that."

German unification was a small taste of the problems facing Europe when they decide to integrate the East...and look at the shit they are in.

Dazzla

Dec 15, 2003, 17:07

Well done. you've avoided a question I've asked, partially answered another and given a full and frank response to one that I didn't even ask.

The second thesis is that the country is in need of structural reform so that it becomes easier for firms to hire and fire, less expensive for companies to do business in Germany, and less burdensome to find a way through red tape.

Red tape...expsnive to do business...easier to hire and fire...

Abstractions.

Concretions, please. And some answers to:

"Odd, isn't it, that boardroom exec pay has risen by around 500% over the last five years? I don't see them cutting down on their holidays, do you?"

What is your opinion on the fact that boardroom pay is rocketing while pay for ordinary workers is frozen or crawling behind inflation?

speedball

Dec 15, 2003, 17:22

you are taking an extreme to try to prove a baseless argument....fat cat directors have ALWAYS been there,its just publicised now.
The fact that i ran a company in Paris that was crippled and forced to close through bureaucratic red tape and antiquated working practices probably means i dont know what i'm talking about? right? The company was up and running for 3 months before we had to close shop as it was too expensive to have the necessary ammount of workers to run effectively,and then,(and get this) we were told to pay everyone one years wages in compensation!! There are so many laws that render running companies and hiring/firing people impossible that i dont know why they even bother to try.(and the Company was Chase Manhatten Bank , so imagine if a bank says "sod that" and shuts us down,to what extent the laws are flawed!)

speedball

Dec 15, 2003, 17:29

Oh,and if you hire someone in France for, say, £20,000 a year...in taxes,health and benefits it costs you close to £55.000 a year in real terms,then if you need to downsize you are then penalised so heavily in payouts that it puts ALL workers at risk of losing their jobs as the cost is so crippling..nice system.This all means that in these ecomomies,any slight economic downturn doesn't mean a few workers get made redundant,it means whole companies fold....how is that modern or competitive???

Dazzla

Dec 16, 2003, 09:09

"Modern"

"Competitive"

The sticks that we have fashioned to beat ourselves sometimes feel like they don't hurt at all.

"The company was up and running for 3 months before we had to close shop as it was too expensive to have the necessary ammount of workers to run effectively,"

Or, looked at another way, your business plan didn't work.
I'll ask again: if it is not possible to afford to pay employees enough for health insurance and a good quality of life, how come the money can be found to pay off failed directors?

I think Marconi's 'redundancy payoff' came to a little more than 35,000EUR.

fireboy

Dec 16, 2003, 13:02

Dazzla spouted:
Well done. you've avoided a question I've asked, partially answered another and given a full and frank response to one that I didn't even ask.

and you are confusing issues :D

having read through what everone has said, it is suprising, but pleasently so to find that we have no sitters on the fence and everyone has, when taken at face value , a decent argument and point(s) to push.

There is credence for the arguments for and against further European intergration i for one am strongly against it for the reasons that i have stated and in part with what Bungee has had to say.

I quite like the analagy of the water tank - which works but at the same time does not. Dazza says:

It is not a case of 'us' giving money to 'them'. It is mutual assistance.

I would not even call it that, in any union whether it be of man and woman, bacon lettuce and tomato or a group of countries wishing to increase a market place goverened by a common rule, taxation and so on - you expect to see a little quit pro quo - i do not see this here. Instead it seems more like we would be helping to bring other countries up to par - yes i hear you cry call it a long term investment - as true as this maybe or you would like to think of it as being i see the cost of it being too great.

When making any decisions which will affect me for the rest of my life, there is thought of my children (one day) will have to possibly grow up in a society, country and even world that i have had the opportunity (as small as it may seem) to shape it into something better and whilst i would want to afford them every opportunity if not more that i have had Europe is looking to become something i do not like the looks of.

To a degree you can consider the franco-german axis of power to be one of the major moving forces within europe which although has had its successes seems to have an increasing number of vices, this taken as one of the major european elements calling for further european intergration is all fine and well BUT when you have them forcing through a temporary suspension of the stability and growth pact it hardly inspires confidence does it ???

Take take take, economy, law, government, security, identity, more like being bled dry than anything else - when i next visit mainland europe i wil have to remember jeremys words

i have already paid

Dazzla

Dec 16, 2003, 13:17

I'm glad you choose such an informed and thoughtful guru on whom to model your opinion.

However, I am aware of the major problems that Europe is experiencing at the moment and I have often reconsidered my position on European integration. But am of the opinion that they cannot be solved from the outside. The Scandinavian business model is not a panacea, but it seems to me that any kind of progress towards a fairer, more genuinely redistributive society is better than the current, pseudo-liberalised 'free' market proposed and enforced by the US as the only way to run the 'world economy'?

Do you not think that, had we been a little hastier and less xenophobic, people might now be including the UK in that axis of power?

So what would your personal solution be?

Anyway, I think it's probably soon to become academic. We are quickly being seen as an irrelevance in Europe. In five years, I'll be suprised if we're any more welcome than Turkey.

fireboy

Dec 16, 2003, 13:46

Dazzla spouted:
I'm glad you choose such an informed and thoughtful guru on whom to model your opinion.

Opinion: a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty and i place emphasis on personal element. It is a shame you have to turn to personal insult, you were doing so well

"I beg you, stay British. I promise, we shall stay French. Together let us be Europeans because as Europeans, we are strong"

if only it was that easy...

-------------------------------------

Anyway, I think it's probably soon to become academic. We are quickly being seen as an irrelevance in Europe. In five years, I'll be suprised if we're any more welcome than Turkey.

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: not sure why you get that impression.

Dazzla

Dec 16, 2003, 13:53

and i place emphasis on personal element. It is a shame you have to turn to personal insult, you were doing so well

Er, I think you'll find I was expressing amazement at someone I had previously thought to be witty and good-humoured using such an arrant tosser as a source of inspiration. Maybe you should try reading all of the words in the sentence? I'm surprised to find such paranoia and oversensitivity in a moderator.

So, tell me what you think we bring to the Big Europe Table?

And again, what would your solution be at this moment in time?

fireboy

Dec 16, 2003, 14:01

Dazzla spouted:
such an arrant tosser as a source of inspiration. Maybe you should try reading all of the words in the sentence? I'm surprised to find such paranoia and oversensitivity in a moderator.

I wondered how long it would be yet again that I being a moderator would be brought into things *yawn* you can stop now. Yes i read all your words, i get the impression as eloquent as you can be sometimes, you are more superfluous than anything and undoubtbaly like the sound of your own voice

As for your comments re Bungee, i find them to be unfounded and riddiculous which really do show you up as being petty - I need not say anything else as Bungee is more than capable.

[/derail]

Dazzla spouted:
So, tell me what you think we bring to the Big Europe Table? And again, what would your solution be at this moment in time?

ok, lunch over and back to work i go - i will return

Dazzla

Dec 16, 2003, 14:07

Yes i read all your words, i get the impression as eloquent as you can be sometimes, you are more superfluous than anything and undoubtbaly like the sound of your own voice

It is a shame you have to turn to personal insult, etc...

As for your comments re Bungee, i find them to be unfounded and riddiculous which really do show you up as being petty

Er, which ones?

UnoChild

Dec 16, 2003, 14:07

Dazzla spouted:

Er, I think you'll find I was expressing amazement at someone I had previously thought to be witty and good-humoured using such an arrant tosser as a source of inspiration. Maybe you should try reading all of the words in the sentence? I'm surprised to find such paranoia and oversensitivity in a moderator.

Personally Dazzla, i think you take yourself far too seriously, and seem too keen on trying impress people with your intelligence and knowledge of current affairs.

Pretentious is the word I think.....

Dazzla

Dec 16, 2003, 14:11

Ok, ok.

I think we shouldn't go into Europe because things are expensive there and we'd have to talk German.

Better?

Dazzla

Dec 16, 2003, 14:48

Ok, perhaps apologies are in order here. Thing is, I work for a major news and media company and am surrounded by this sort of thing all day and sometimes it's a bit difficult to turn off. And, yeah, I like a good row, and do think that these are serious issues that are often trivialised because of fear of sounding too sincere or enthusiastic. So, sorry if I came across as a bit forward or aggressive. Pax and stuff.

I'd still like to know what I said about Bungeeboy though.

Manta7

Dec 16, 2003, 14:50

Dazzla, I have always been against any further integration with Europe but that doesn't make me xenophobic. This is a similar tactic you've used in the past when making points, like the time I tried in vain to discuss, I thought sensibly, illegal immigration where you repeatedly accused me of being a 'racist' which I had to frequently deny. And after pages and pages of trying to appeal to your better nature concluded with you telling me to "fuck off to North Yorkshire to live with white people". An unkind and very hurtful remark I thought at the time.

I didn't really want to bring that up as, much to my surprise, we've got on better since your return back which has been nice and very welcome. You are an intelligent guy and very articulate with words, but somewhere along the line you've developed this superiority complex which doesn't do you any justice and I think deep down you're better than that.

UnoChild

Dec 16, 2003, 14:53

I think this might be what you said about Bungeeboy:

Fireboy spouted:

There is credence for the arguments for and against further European intergration i for one am strongly against it for the reasons that i have stated and in part with what Bungee has had to say.

Dazzla spouted:

I'm glad you choose such an informed and thoughtful guru on whom to model your opinion.

Dazzla spouted:

Er, I think you'll find I was expressing amazement at someone I had previously thought to be witty and good-humoured using such an arrant tosser as a source of inspiration.

Fireboy spouted;

As for your comments re Bungee, i find them to be unfounded and riddiculous which really do show you up as being petty - I need not say anything else as Bungee is more than capable.

Dazzla

Dec 16, 2003, 15:10

Manta:

I don't neccesarily regard opposition to Europe as xenophobic, but many of the more forceful political arguments used, particularly by the Conservative party (who are the most coherent political body in opposition to further integration) appeal to a xenophobic instinct. in addition, your support for Nick Griffin (which is not a subject for discussion here) on the immigration issue did perhaps indicate that your attitudes to immigration were not as balanced and fair as you were making them out to be.

But that's another story and another thread...

Dazzla

Dec 16, 2003, 15:13

Ah. I think sloppy syntax has bittern my arse again.

I was referring to this:

Take take take, economy, law, government, security, identity, more like being bled dry than anything else - when i next visit mainland europe i wil have to remember jeremys words

i have already paid

Which is a quote by Jeremy Clarkson, who was the arrant tosser to whom I was referring.

No wonder you thought I was being petty. If they'd been about Bungeeboy, I would have wholheartedly agreed.

:S

Bungeeboy

Dec 16, 2003, 15:15

Right well, that's all sorted then.

[/way off topic]

Manta7

Dec 16, 2003, 15:34

Dazzla spouted:
Manta:

I don't neccesarily regard opposition to Europe as xenophobic, but many of the more forceful political arguments used, particularly by the Conservative party (who are the most coherent political body in opposition to further integration) appeal to a xenophobic instinct. in addition, your support for Nick Griffin (which is not a subject for discussion here) on the immigration issue did perhaps indicate that your attitudes to immigration were not as balanced and fair as you were making them out to be.

But that's another story and another thread...

Dazzla, I have never supported Nick Griffin or his party - here or anywhere else. But this is just another example of why you take comments completely out of context and distort them into something else.

/me sighs

[/off topic]

Wayne-Carr

Dec 19, 2003, 13:37

Why are we opposed to Europe ?

WE are not . It is the powers that be that want us to be opposed to Europe SOLELY for 1 reason.

We would have to lower our taxation levels on tobacco and alcohol to a sane level to comply with European policy and if this happened our whole economy would collapse (last count for DAILY revenue on tobacco tax in this country was £18 million as i remember hearing) and income tax would treble to offset this so negating any political parties chance at gaining power or winning an election.

For centuries now ,this country has bled its population dry with an insatiable appetite for taxation and has consequently dug itself into a hole because of it.

So ,next time you see a politician defending the pound or whatever bollox he feels he has to spout to reinforce your feeling of national identity ,just remember. Its ALL about the tax on booze and fags. The rest is just a whitewash to stop them having to work out a way to supplement this massive income they have enjoyed for so many years.