Scenes from Clubland, part I.

1) London, July 1997:

"...so we bombed out of The End, gasping in the cool morning air, the shivers and goosepimples from that incredible rush still riffling over skin, down nerves. Everything glistened and shone in the early dawn light, and we needed to see more. The Park.

Two policemen stood at Oxford Circus, watching us pass wih amused interest and tolerance. I noticed them, becuase as I turned my head to light Jan's cigarette, the flourescent jacket caught the corner of my eye, dragging my curious head back to see what was up.

I looked directly into the policeman's eyes.

"Where are you lot going?" He asked.

We smiled as one "The park, officer."

"Which park would that be?" he asked, the beginnings of a playful grin beginning to form around his eyes and mouth

"Green Park"

"Well, you're going the right way, aren't you? Mind yourselves."

Marky's curiosity broke the surface.

"Look, he said to the policemen, "You know we've been doing drugs, right?"

"Right. I'd say Ecstasy," said the officer, slightly warily.

"And it doesn't bother you?"

He paused to collect his thoughts: "Why would it bother me? Tonight, we've been patrolling the Tottenham Court Road area. I've seen a stabbing, two glassings and more assaults than I can count. These people were drinking alcohol, and I believe that this is why they act this way. I see clubbers coming out of clubs every Friday and Saturday, and I know what they've been doing. We know where it goes on, and we know who are silling it, and I see all of you, happy, smiling, brighly dressed. You talk to us. You pass the time of day, rather than shouting in our faces, vomiting and generally making life very unpleasant for everyone around you. What's to be bothered about?"

"But it's illegal."

"Yes. But I think that's a lot of rubbish. You can't criminalise someone for a consumer preference. You might as well ask me to jail someone for preferring frosties to Coco-pops."

About 100 yards further down the street: "Dude, what a geezer!

We laughed until we were nearly sick.

Happily, we went on out way to watch the sun ruse in Green Park. And I'll bet that no-one has ever lain on a silk chaise-longues that felt as luxurious as the July, sun-baked grass felt to this happy quartet that morning."

So, do you agree with the policeman? maybe you're an advocate of the War on Drugs? What do you think?

Scenes from Clubland, part III:

Well, I have received much encouragement to relate my experiences on Ecstasy, so here is an attempt...

I was told almost a week in advance that I might have the opportunity to try Ecstasy with the young lady who acted as a guide for my first LSD trip. We were to meet at a given tube station not far from the nightclub where the experimentation would take place.

I was not easy about trying a new psychedelic in a crowded place, realizing this could have been difficult to handle with LSD. But there lay the opportunity and I just hoped to have enough mental control (practice of Yoga helping) if things got tight.

I had read about MDMA in Peter Stafford's Psychedelics Encyclopaedia, but was aware E's are not very often pure MDMA. In addition, the book had stayed at home and my memory of its contents had faded somewhat. So I scanned the net for an Ecstasy FAQ and read that, also reading whatever current reports of the experience were posted on alt.drugs.

Quite strangely, that was also the week my father decided to give me a hysterical account of some absurd and manipulatively badly written article in a Swiss newspaper depicting the dreadful and possessive evils of the Love Pill. He knows I have profound interest in altered consciousness and its chemical gateways, but not what I'm up to in my spare time...

Anyway, I psyched myself up all week for the event, and when the Saturday evening came, I left a little note on my desk explaining that if I was unlucky that night, the Quest had been worth it.

As soon as we entered the nightclub, we went upstairs to the dance floor. An immense room with drapes hanging off all walls, a screen with a permanent slide of Planet Earth on it and countless balloons floating all around.

Sitting in a corner of the stage, I was handed my 2/3 of a White Dove pill. I insisted on chewing it to taste it - I wanted some intimate contact with the substance I was about to share my mind with. Tasted awful. Very chemical. That made me laugh, especially looking at the face of my companion who had agreed to bite into it too. We washed the taste down with gulps from the traditional raver's water bottle, as our supplier explained to us a few of the basics and possible initial effects.

'If you feel funny, get up and dance.' she had said.

Sure enough, about 25 minutes later, I was feeling slightly uncomfortable. Stomach ? Mind ? I wasn't sure. From feeling quite talkative I went to being rather silent and reserved. So I got up and began to jiggle about. That felt a whole lot better.

I was soon joined by the other Ecstasy-newbie who commented that nothing was happening to her.

'I feel weird', I said.

'Keep dancing' our supplier repeated, she too waiting for her E to kick in.

Minutes later I experienced a rush to the head - I felt for a few seconds that I was really going to lose it, and had a vision of myself huddled in a corner, crying for hours. Damn, just my luck I thought, a bad trip on the first one. I literally felt as if my mind was going to black out. No way, I thought, no way. My dad talks WOsD propaganda and I'm not having a bad trip. I quickly searched for my companions on the stage and got closer to them. I danced more energetically, trying to get into the music.

Seconds later a most unbelievable surge of energy and gentle warmth rushed through my body. It was so brutally intense, all I could do for several minutes was inhale and let the breath come out as one long howl of indescriptible joy. Many around me joined in. It seemed as though half the stage was just hollering in joint ecstasy.

Ecstasy. The perfect word. No other could have described what I was experiencing right then and there. Beyond words. The entire message was contained in a scream and the most intense smile my face had displayed in ages.

Our supplier bounded up to us asking 'are you OK ? Have you eased up both of you ? You were rather tense'. I just grinned my face off.

'I feel like hugging everybody' I shouted.

'Then DO !' she yelled, flinging herself around my neck. Geez, that felt so GOOD ! Hugging was the most rewarding, comforting and uplifting experience ! This, for a person such as myself, usually quite conscious of personal space and physical contact with strangers, was a truly fascinating discovery.

The music too was surrounding me in trance-like comfort. The sound spoke to every nerve in my body. This is the synergy between dance, mind and rythmic signatures Terrence McKenna was on about, I thought. Wow. I could enjoy the 'Here and Now' - any time a thought of something unpleasant from the world would arise, I could look at it without stress, then gently push it out of my mind. It didn't matter that I had a project and exams. This state was pure, free, uninhibited.

Speaking to people in the chill-out room was bliss. I wanted everybody to be OK, I wanted to know their names, how many times they came here, what they were on... They were all so friendly.

One of them asked me 'You're all loved up, right ?'. I answered with the ecstatic grin. 'It's their first E' he was told. He then got up, opened his arms wide, and gave me a big hug. There was something so pure and brotherly about the whole atmosphere, it was overwhelming.

I noticed all the described effects : brighter lights and colours, increased physical energy yet great calm, strong empathy and forgiveness for agressive behaviour, merging with the music to a trance state...

'Beware of inappropriate emotional bonding', I had read. Damn, that's what held me back from interacting more fully with an unusually pretty girl who seemed to want to dance with me. As I noticed she was looking into my eyes and half turning to face me, I felt my heartbeat pound away. Another amazing wave of warmth shot up through my stomach to the top of my head. I felt my entire body vibrating with pleasure. I was on E and I was being turned on.

I just looked into her eyes. I was confused by the intensity of the attraction, and uncertain how much of this was real. I needed a nod from a friend to go ahead, or something like that.

The nod never came. But I learned something really valuable there. Several years ago I got screwed up by a strong bondage with a girl. She moved away, and sure enough some predator attracted by her beauty seduced her. Though she chucked him away fast, that was the end for us. I had never been able to start another relationship with a girl since. I would miss any cue girls would send out to me, or even turn away from them, frightened. That Saturday night, Ecstasy cleared me from this emotional hangup. On the way down, I became introspective and meditative, and figured out what had been inhibiting me from falling in love again. This made me feel a great weight had just left my conscience, and I shared this feeling with friends immediately. I was once more free to love.

Sounds dramatic, I know. But this realization was deep, complete and liberating. LSD had freed my mind from some of its shackles, Ecstasy was freeing my feelings.

There would be so much more to say. But if you've read this far, I won't abuse your patience.

What remains from the first experience is this emotional freedom, this feeling for Compassion (I now have a much better notion of what Buddha or Christ seemed to be preaching), and an increased ability to tune in to the structures and messages of music. On a more subtle level, I find it easier to initiate conversation with people and can cope better with aimless talk about this or that. I can also pick out almost anybody in a nightclub who is on E ! A real sharing and compassionate bunch - if a complete stranger happily offers you water, a spliff or a Vicks inhaler, I give you one guess as to what he's swallowed. Check the intense smile on his face, too.

I have had only two more experiences with Ecstasy since.

On one occasion I met a really interesting group on the dance floor, winding up back at their place smoking spliff and playing video games, with a good bed for the night ! It also confirmed the return of my ability to interact with girls without hangups.

On the second occasion, I had twenty minutes of deeply mystical feeling ('I feel I'm talking to Jesus' I told my friend - this being from an agnostic). I also had a blinding moment in which I felt intensely how deeply important my friends are to me and how far beyond ordinary bonds our friendship goes.

So for whoever is going to try Ecstasy : aside from the usual drink-lots-of-water-and-wear-loose-clothing advice, prepare for times of howling beauty and buzzing interactions. Remember you can look at personal problems in a warm detached manner and maybe solve emotional history problems. And prepare for the ultimate experiences in dancing.

From Erowid.org (http://www.eorwid.org)

I firmly believe that the govt is missing out on a huge revenue spinner. If drugs were available and we knew what was in them and the effects they would have, people would be safer. The monies generated would cause a reduction of taxes (I would hope), possibly a tad less crime, less of a social stigma... the list goes on.

Yes, I am living in lala land. No, I have never taken drugs, I choose not too (not everybody takes stuff just because it is available). I'm about as straight as I can get whilst still being able to bend my joints, and the above is just my opinion. :)

Less people wpuld be hospitalised because the drugs would be pure right? I'm under the impression that pure ecstacy is safe, its just that most of it is cut with rat poison and stuff, and its the other stuff that kills people. Correct me if I'm wrong. I've not tried it wither by the way.

There's a drugs forum in flambe, and I've posted my comments on the issue there, but I think Dazzla's first article is mightyfine

thats thought provoking indeed. thx daz

I agree with legalisation on 2 grounds one economic and one social

Economic reason: People will buy them whether legal or not, if they're sold by big companies that can use Economies of Scale to reduce the cost of manufacturing then the difference between the wholesale price and black market price could be tax so the government can pay for more public services(hopefully)
Social - Most junkies die when they suddenly get some drugs which arent cut with glass/chalk/brick dust and because it's 50% pure rather than 10% they're effectively taking five times more than usual. Either that or they get abcesses from injecting ground glass or poisened because it's been cut with something like rat poisen or paracetomol etc If it was government tested it would be pure

I'm for the "legalise everything, bring it out of the shadows, and stop pretending it isnt happening" arguement.

Try not to use huge quotes unless they're integral to your post, thanks.

Dazzla: was with you all the way there sir !! spot on. :D

Been taking drugs for 15 years now. No ill effects, no mental episodes, high sperm count, never been out of work, still able to learn and remember and excel at things i chosse to.
99% of my friends take drugs too. None have over-dosed, died, murdered or raped anyone. Most of my life's best times have been enhanced, one way or another, by booze or drugs. Only the weak-willed or un-educated get fucked up by drugs, whether booze, drugs or cigarettes. End of sermon...

Well I can say that I am with you guys 100%.
Dazzla that was a top dollar post, Made me smile and remember the good times that I had on drugs.

I love drugs.:)

hmmm here's for the come down dudes. having suffered from depression for the last three years, i honestly dont know whether it was triggered by my chemical use when i was younger. it could be argued that i may have been a borderline personality anyway, but nobody can know that for sure. i do know quite a few people who have come out worse than me as well. i am for legalising weed, but bare in mind there are risks which may unfold later in life. all i know for certain is the current drug laws do not work, and probably wont ever work. i just dont believe the legalise everything approach will work either.

I have no idea what the right way to deal with them is, but the one thing I do know is that highly addictive drugs like heroin should never be legalised. How many more houses would get burgled to pay for the huge increase in addictions from people legally trying heroin?

I was fucking very depressed for years, before i was even old enough to know i had depression. I live with it daily and it still pisses me off, but i find being stoned helps me to think of the beauty of humanity and not the ignorance of it. Also, the first time i got wasted i got turned on to the various psychological states a mind can be in, and this in turn prompted me to investigate what was wrong with my head. Im no expert on depression or drugs, i just know what works for me.

Moved from flambe and Bob'ed. Good work Dazzla.

I thought the poll was going to be one to see what drugs we liked the best- I'm all disappointed now :(

indian viagra 3 outta five hardons

indeed that was a fine post and has me smiling like cheshire cat!

guess who tried the love bug for the first time about 6 weeks ago and for the second time 3 weeks ago? yup... i shot the sheriff.

both times all i wanted to do was smile, chew, HUG HUG HUG and occasionally dance like my spirit was on fire. it truly was the greatest feeling i have ever had. and the best part? my mate who did it with me the second time says they are incredibly mellow weak pills we had. so i have a whole lot more to look forward to. god i fucking love these little bastards... which is bad. i dont want to start doing them all the time as i have no idea what the effects will be later in life... but i think a few pills every couple of months cant be too bad can they?

as for the poll... it was too sweeping. i voted for marijuana legalisation because the laws needto be reformed but i DO NOT advocate heroin legalisation. i have had so many friends OD on that shit in hk... not cool. but weed, pills, shrooms, LSD, coke and speed should all be legal. crystal meth, pcp, angel dust (although i think they are all the same shit right?) crack and heroin should all stay off the legal list. and cigarettes should get banned also.

i just finished my E honeymoon... and by god i love that girl.

How can Tobacco be legal when Cannabis isn't. It is a travesty that draconian laws like this continue to be enforced. Tobacco is a lethal drug which kills thousands of people every year, whilst offering no medicinal qualities, or even any kind of high whatsoever!

Drugs like Heroin, Crack etc should all be illegal. They're fucking dangerous and seriously addictive. They're the drugs that fuck peoples lives up the worst. Although alcohol causes more damage than most drugs combined, an alcoholic is nowhere near as fucked up, or as dangerous as a crackhead.

As for things like pills, coke, speed and LSD, although at the moment they can be dodgy drugs, this is mainly due to the things that they're bashed (mixed) with. If they were legal, then the government could regulate them, making them safe, and then tax them (and we know how much the government loves raising taxes).

I voted for the legalise cannabis bit. Let's face it, how many stoners do you see in our town centres beating the crap out of each other on a friday night?

I think E should be legalised more than any other. 90% of people who take E these days won't have ever had the real McCoy, which is MDMA. Some very good pills contain a small amount of MDMA, but actual MDMA powder/crystal is where its at these days. That stuff blows your head off, its that actual 'lovey' / ;huggy' feeling... Great stuff.

Normal pills are dirtier, and the comedown is far worse too.

One problem is not knowing the long term effects - there is evidence to suggest that a future generation of blue collar workers are going to be fucked for short term memory and possible bouts of depression because of the damage caused to seratonin receptors, from taking too much MDMA.

there is an extremely viable argument that if the drug was legal, more research would be done to establish the extent of the risk.

Long term effects of most drugs are not known, but this isn't something new (phelidemide, being a prime example). Everytime a drug is hailed as being a wonder solution (Seroxat et al) new research emerges to suggest maybe we shouldn't be prescribing these willy nilly. MDMA provides a lot of help to Parkinson sufferers who suffer mobility issues due to use of El Dopa, only after taking E can some of these people actually move around freely.

That said, the scariest thing about illegal drugs (as renegadedog has said) is not knowing what's in it, long term effects or no long term effects, it's the short term effects of unwittingly taking things like Warfarin, Strichenine and other shite that's cut with drugs that scares me.

Drugs like Heroin, Crack etc should all be illegal. They're fucking dangerous and seriously addictive. They're the drugs that fuck peoples lives up the worst.

Are you suggesting that making them illegal so that people don;t even know what they are taking makes things better? Surely you're not suggesting that their being illegal stops people taking them? If they were legal then people could get them from an approved source. 99% of junkies want to kick the habit but heroin and crack are hard to break. How about if people could be given doctor prescribed programmes of the pure chemicals, watered down over time to allow the body to adjust and switching to a placebo after time. It has been proven that this is the most effective way to get somebody off of heroin, methodone simply does not work most of the time because it makes the junkies feel ill.

That said, the scariest thing about illegal drugs (as renegadedog has said) is not knowing what's in it, long term effects or no long term effects, it's the short term effects of unwittingly taking things like Warfarin, Strichenine and other shite that's cut with drugs that scares me.

Yes, when I first tried pure MDMA powder I couldn't believe how different it was to any other pill I'd done.

i don't really take any drugs these days other than beer, but that's one thing I don't regret trying. do kind of regret trynig LSD though - nasty stuff...

Are you suggesting that making them illegal so that people don;t even know what they are taking makes things better? Surely you're not suggesting that their being illegal stops people taking them? If they were legal then people could get them from an approved source. 99% of junkies want to kick the habit but heroin and crack are hard to break. How about if people could be given doctor prescribed programmes of the pure chemicals, watered down over time to allow the body to adjust and switching to a placebo after time. It has been proven that this is the most effective way to get somebody off of heroin, methodone simply does not work most of the time because it makes the junkies feel ill.

What I'm saying Dom is that by making these drugs legal, the govt is seen to be condoning the use of them. This is not something I would agree with. Certain drugs are illegal for a reason, and Heroin & Crack are perfect examples of these.

The trouble at the moment is that too many drugs are illegal. When kids hit puberty, they start experimenting. Cigarettes, alcohol, and of course the drugs naturally follow.
Most kids start off with cannabis. Now the govt tells them that this is a bad drug, and its illegal so you shouldnt do it. When kids do it and find out that it aint as bad as everyone was saying it is, they get cocky. They start to move onto harder drugs. Coke, Ecstacy. These drugs giving a much stronger high, and so are more addictive. These kids arent always aware that what theyre taking, although posing little immediate dangers, cause long term damage. The next step of course is Heroin and Crack. The poor bastards who go this far up the ladder are now fucked for life.

By keeping them illegal, of course it wont stop people taking them. Theres no reason why the govt cant set up approved sources to help addicts kick these drugs while keeping them illegal, is there? But at least by making weaker drugs legal and keeping the strong ones illegal, it makes the difference clearer, rather than calling all illegal substances 'drugs' and washing our hands of it.

[/rant]

Certain drugs are illegal for a reason, and Heroin & Crack are perfect examples of these.


There is no example in modern society of a drug that is illegal for humanitarian reasons. The Chinese opium trade has more to do with Heroin prohibition than the fact that it is a harmful substance.

I understand your point, but I'm in the camp that believes that more harm comes from keeping them illegal. Heroin and Crack abuse cause street crime because of their high prices, before smack was prohibbited in the States, addicts could stay high on about 2 cents per day, the high price is a direct result of illegal trade.
Health problems are also more of a concern when drugs are illegal as illegal trade causes them to be cut with a whole manner of shite in order to maximise profiteering.
Other than "But it's Heroin!!! That's a really bad drug", I've never heard an arguement for its prohibition that I agree with.
Heroin is a bad bad drug, but making such a bad drug illegal (thereby handing huge profits to dealers) makes the whole world a worse place.

Look at it this way - Heroin is worth more in weight than gold. It's incredibly addictive and easy to move, sell and consume. It's the gift wrapped get rich quick scheme that criminals have been waiting for all their lives. There isn't another substance on earth quite like it from the point of view of a retailer.

I'm having a hard time believing any copper would stop and say that shit to a bunch of kids off their heads.

This kind of propaganda hypes the short term benefits (indeed, are they benefits? I wouldn't wanna be so loved up that I focus my attentions on entirely the wrong person and misread some dangerous signals) and ignores the real health risks, some of which I believe are dehydration, increased heart rate and fatigue.

Who would be able to cope with the 'down' times and reality of their lives, which appear so crap in comparison to the feeling they get on a Saturday night, yet others face it and become stronger.

Live in the real world, not a fake one.

When I was younger I went through a phase of experimenting with drugs. Cannabis is fine in moderate use and generally should be legalised. But there are some people that will really abuse it these people can become hugely lethargic and suffer from bouts of paranoia. I've known people who barely leave the house and start hitting the bong as soon as they get up in the afternoon. This includes one guy who was on disability because he had agoraphobia and was prone to bouts of schizophrenia because he got so stoned all the time. Since he got his disability put straight into his account he would give his card to his dealer who would then get the cash out so he wouldn't have to leave the house.

Speed was crap for me I have a fairly low attention span at the best of times and on speed it just got worse. I just talked bollocks about 5 times quicker than I normally do.

Cocaine was the same speed really just cranked up to 10. But being around people on coke when you aren't you realise what utter pricks the people are.

Mushrooms didn't do too much for me but I was also very stoned at the time. All I saw was the pattern on the carpet moving and things like multicolored fireflies flying around the room which was cool.

When i dislocated my shoulder I got pumped with morphine wich gave a great warm feeling over my body and total relaxation. I can see why heroin is so addictive.

Marie has a point that for many people, the psychological/emotional stresses of using drugs can surely overwhelm some people? Why work for your happiness when you can get a rush 10 times better by chucking a pill down your throat. Kind've iconifies the whole "the world owes me it and I want it now" attitude that is spreading like a disease across the western world.

Drugs aren't for me. I dabbled a little with alcohol in my early teens and quickly grew out of it (Haven't touched any since 14/15) 'cause quite frankly, it's a shit drug. For me, if I didn't work for it, it's not worth anything to me. I'm fairly sure that a lot of people have the integrity to use drugs responsibly. Dazzla seems like the kind of guy who could have fun with all kinds of substances and probably never hurt someone. But for every person who's like him, there's a hundred who'll shove all the pills down their throat they can get their grubby mitts on, probably ruining their lives and a few others in the process. Alcohol has taught us that most people don't have a clue how to moderate, and lack the self-control and responsibility to be trusted to use chemicals to dick around with their brain.

Quite frankly, we're not ready yet. Recreational drugs shouldn't be seen as a valid lifestyle choice, and lots more support should be available to keep people away from them. We have far too many social problems which are steadily escalating as it is. Most recreational drugs will be a rather nice catalyst to accelerate them I bet.

I agree that drugs aren't for everyone. However, my main point is that people shouldn't be criminalised for doing them. It clearly doesn't even work as a deterrent, since people still do them.

If people can do drag racing, boxing, hang gliding, parachute jumping, all highly dangerous activities, there's no reason why people shouldn't be able to take substances (providing they pay the consequences themselves)

the problem is not that we do drugs, its that we know about drugs.

once it is out there,the thoguht of a higher state etc, then people will want to do it. there will always be one guy who wants to see what this chemical does...

and although most people are responsible with their drug use, there are those that arent. look at those who fucked up through cigarettes and alcohol. its not the drugs, its the people.

heroin is a highly addictive substance for some (most) but not all. i know people who do it occasionaly (i.e once every few months) and have never gotten addicted. however i still thinks its bad. it WOULD be better if it were legal (i.e. cleaner/cheaper) but i still believe in general its too easy to try it and stick to it.

i would also like to note that psycho-active drugs are perhas worse than physical drugs because you are effectively submerging your brain (a highly complex, unknown set of chemical reactions) in a big puddle of other chemicals. heroin is addictive and pushes you to fuck up your life through that addiction but LSD and shrooms and other stuff make you see shit that isnt there and has been linked to mental conditions. there is no good/bad drugs...

btw, the opium wars (britain vs china) was won by the brits and is the reason we took hong kong from them. we demanded to be able to sell opium to them and they said no. so we simply told them otherwise at the point of a gun. so i dont think this is the reason heroin is banned in the UK.

a couple of points here...

theres not many drugs I havent taken in a long and interesting life, so heres my take...

heroin is not a dangerous drug. Its an addictive drug and its easy to OD if you tend towards being self indulgent or stupid. I've known people hold down good jobs with a habit for many years, pay their taxes, raise a family. Your purse snatching mugger is what hits the headlines.

legalise heroin through a clinical system and you get rid of all that romantic 'Too fast to live, too young to die' bollocks, and addicts can live a normal life without burgling my house for money.

Dangerous drugs? Alcohol, speed, downers (valium, wobbly eggs, etc), crack cocaine.

the rest? Legalise the lot. Pay the taxes to Government which they can spend on public services. At the moment your drugs profits are going to some very bad men. And channeling into terrorism, people traffic and fuck knows what.

I know fairly senior coppers who support this view, and the Chief Constable of Oxfordshire said pretty much the same thing in an interview a couple of years back.

get coppers chasing rapists, murderers, thugs, burglars. Not dopers who do little harm to anybody

I've taken an assortment of drugs (for resaerch perposes ,y'know) ,and can reccomend most of them ,however,i'm concerned about the proposal to legalise alchahol. If this were to be legalised I fear that the country would rely on it to gain their form of entertainment ,especially at weekends ,should it be freely available. And would cause problems in our town centres ,due to excessive intake ,and cause a rise of the popularity of young persons 'coming out' ,and going to legalised premises that will result from its legal status.

Just to be perverse, I voted "I would go further - I'd ban alcohol and tobacco too. "

In reality, I wouldn't have a clue. I can't see why people can't be content with booze, & perhaps the occasional "reefer", or whatever they call them these days. Or just a few marijuana biscuits with your cup of tea.

Mind you, I've led a sheltered sort of life.

alcolhol is my regular drug of choice... you know, a pint in the pub with mates or a bottle on the couch watching tv... but i would ban it if i had the choice. it does indeed cause more harm than good and has the most excessive range of potential for abuse.

id ban alcohol and cigarettes, legalise heroin, coke, weed, shrooms, E and perhaps LSD. you can live on heroin with no real side effects. it is a relatively safe drug if you know what your doing (you can overdose on many 'legal' drugs) and so i see no problem with it except addiction. but if it were legal it wouldnt be such a problem idont think.

Its the 'addiction' word which is the problem .Heroin has been used by many people who got no more 'addicted' to it than cadburies smash.But it has also been used by people who became addicted after looking at the wrapper.
Same with any drug.Be it grass,whizz,fags,alchahol etc.Even coffee and tea to some extent.Its all a matter of self control,but whilst the 'nasty' drugs are under strict restrictions ,with no form of control ,its easy to see why they are a problem.

Cappy warns:

Even coffee and tea to some extent

I've O'deed on tea, I'll confess. More than once, truth be told. It's a strange, stressed metallic sort of feeling. You find yourself drifting in a weird cosmos in which everything seems to taste of stewed tea, & its high-pitched but sluggish sort of resonances. It's had to describe, like most hard-core drug experiences.

And it certainly makes you do a lot of wee-wee.

Don't underestimate the power of a tea bag.

shrooms, and perhaps LSD.

I was under the impression that these and other hallucinagens (mescaline, is it) can quite commonly turn people with quite latent, insignificant mental issues into respectively dangerous people. If you're fucking around with your entire perception of the world, you can't guarantee what you'll do or who you'll hurt. Something that could turn a harmless person into a dangerous person surely can't be any good?

He was already stood on the edge of the cliff, so how can I be held morally reprehensible for pushing him over?

Voted on the poll for the legalization of Cannabis but would stongly prefer a blanket ban on other hard drugs. How many people who smoke wish they had never picked up a cigarette and of those that smoke how many wish they could give up? Now think of people addicted to heroin or crack and multiply that feeling many times over. To say that heroin is safe or can be taken without any ill effect is blatantly wrong in a majority of cases. Society is made up of many different types, some who take drugs and others who don't for a variety of reasons, some to escape from reality and others for recreational purposes, who think they can keep their "feet on the ground". Addiction does not come marching up with a brass band playing in front of it. It tends to slowly creep up on you and before you know it you have a serious problem. To say that people can control what they take is wrong, being under the influence of most substances (illegal) does not exactly promote rational thought. I would ddefinitely be on the side of keeping a ban. Can you honestly see legalization across the board happening? Tony Blair stands in front of Pariament and anouces sweeping change to the existing drug laws. Political suicide, it will never happen.

indeed kormiic i agree with you on the shrooms and LSD point... as i said with E you are essentially drowning your brain (highly complex balance of chemicals) in a highly complex chemical sludge... it is never good for you and should not be taken lightly.

but also, how many times have you seen people go from being perfectly nice rational people to blinded maniacs intent on the destruction of the world when drinking? i know i can become like that occasionally after one or 50 too many shots of hard liquor.

everything in moderation would bethe key but yes... specific legislation would be needed for people to do LSD and stuff legally.

as for heroin.. i never said all or even most people could use it and not get addicted... but it is the social stigma and the dealers who push people to doing it secretly where it can become a big problem. like secretly being an alcoholic. heroin is a very strong drug but it is quite possible that if it were implemented with the same laws as alcohol (no driving/operating heavy machinery/looking after kids etc while on it) then it would not be as bad as it is now... especially if it were made much cheaper and more readily available so people do not need to steal for it.

but its just my two cents.

Great thread by the way! :)
It's put a smile on my face as I've just had the best night out clubbing EVER on Saturday, and I've been to a lot of clubs. We went to The End(strange coincidence!), which is our favourite haunt as the crowd are so friendly. I did the best pills I've ever laid my hands on and am still warm and buzzy in my tummy with the feeling of love and euphoria that I'm still carrying from the weekend. Whenever I go clubbing with my partner we have the best time, and it feels like I'm meeting him for the first time all over again. We only got 5-7 times a year, and neither of us have ever got sick or had a bad experience. I've tried everything except heroin, I even tried crack ashamedly. :( I'm glad it was only once as it's really addictive.

I think they should all be controlled and legalised. And as somebody mentioned earlier, people usually die when they try something that is pure, rather than the crap they usually take. All these horror stories about rat poison are urban legends, they drugs are usually cut with glucose.

indeed kormiic i agree with you on the shrooms and LSD point... as i said with E you are essentially drowning your brain (highly complex balance of chemicals) in a highly complex chemical sludge... it is never good for you and should not be taken lightly.

shrooms aren't so bad, because in almost everybody, when you hallucinate while on shrooms you recognise that what you're seeing is a hallucination. With LSD and Mescaline however, while under the influence, many people will not only see things that aren't there, but with behave as if they believe it's real... which can have obvious dangers to innocent bystanders.

The thing with E is, it does flush your brain with a mess of chemicals, and probably does a whole mess of damage in the process. However, I don't so much have a problem with this. The chemicals it flushes you with greatly supress any urges you may have to hurt people. Unline alcohol, you're not very likely to get violent or hurt anybody other than yourself. People can do whatever harm they like to themselves. My concern is someone on LSD mistaking me for satan and stabbing me to death. Likewise I fear proliferation of drugs through legalisation, 'cause imagine if I was in a building that was on fire, and I burned to death 'cause I was tripping over folk who were all too wrecked on coke to get out of my fucking way.

All facetiousness aside, I think the legalisation of addictive drugs will result in lots and lots and lots of people getting addicted young. Of course, nobody has factored in the commercialisation aspect. If its being sold, it suits someone's to "Hook 'em young." The short and long term ramifications of many, many people all spending their days giving their heads a royal fucking doesn't take a genius to figure out.

everything in moderation would bethe key

I think we as a people have proved we, on a whole, lack the ability to moderate.

'& perhaps the occasional "reefer", ' I tried the VERY occasional reefer the other day, threw up everywhere, feinted and some bastard nicked by bottle of White Lightning. Never again.

A piece of advice from an old git nicola. Just because you've had a bad experience with drugs don't let that put you off. Keep trying different ones and eventually you'll find one you like. Good luck.

Herman, I'm having trouble decoding your 'argument'. Are you suggesting that one of the reasons that currently illegal substances should not be legalised is becuase it would be really, really hard to do?

'& perhaps the occasional "reefer", ' I tried the VERY occasional reefer the other day, threw up everywhere, feinted and some bastard nicked by bottle of White Lightning. Never again.

The reason you threw up everywhere Nicola, is more to do with the White Lighting than the joint. Cannabis should not be used whilst under the influence of alcohol (unless you are used to it) or the same thing will happen every time. Try smoking a joint when sober. It's very relaxing

btw White Lightning is discusting stuff, but cheap and it gets you pissed. (takes me back a few years). 20/20 was the other shit we used to drink, and Merry D - the dirtiest cider you can get.

Herman, I'm having trouble decoding your 'argument'. Are you suggesting that one of the reasons that currently illegal substances should not be legalised is becuase it would be really, really hard to do?

No I'm not saying that at all Dazzla. What I am saying is you will never get a major politician publicly saying that they think hard drugs should be made legal to the general public. If Tony Blair or whoever said they would like to change the current drug laws to alow hard drugs to be available they would not win votes. Every parent with teenage children would turn their backs on those who sought to take that course of action. I'm not sure how hard or easy it would be to change the law but that is not the reason I think heroin and cocaine and other hard drugs should not be made legal. My reason for keeping a ban in place is because they mess peoples lives up.
From what you wrote in your first posts you knew how to take it and enjoy the buzz but you have to admit that a pill is different to crack.

A piece of advice from an old git nicola. Just because you've had a bad experience with drugs don't let that put you off. Keep trying different ones and eventually you'll find one you like. Good luck.
Actually ,most of what I tried first time either didn't work (grass , acid -though i think it was a dud,etc) , or tasted horrible ( fags ,beer,etc) ,but instead of keeping on trying different ones I persevered with the ones I couln't at first get to grips with ,and then felt I was better tuned in to abuse the other ones.

I think for a laydee the best plan is to master a couple that you fancy the idea of, say cigarettes & speed; learn how to handle yourself & be cool on those, then kinda slur into others. Although speed seems out of fashion these days I still feel a nostalgia for it, I believe it aids weight reduction in a number of ways.Cigarettes are highly recommended since they form the basis of the other two ESSENTIAL drugs: alcohol (can't have a pinot grigio without a nice soothing Gauloise), and good old dope.

There are those who say smoking dope is better out of a bong but this is bullshit. The idea is to get as much smoke into your body in a single hit without actually falling over and puking, at least for beginners this is much easier using a joint and a length of toilet roll or kitchen roll with a hole in it. The health cigaretty substances enhance the cannabis elements and lead to a pleasant dizziness.

Ah. room service has arrived with my bottle of wine. Must dash.

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs ,but i found the most economical method I used to preserve my dope stash was the 'Hot Knife 'method.

Thanks for the advice Stevie , i guess ill have to be more carefull about what i drink in future. I think it might be wise to get stoned before i get pissed instead of the other way round?

'20/20 was the other shit we used to drink, and Merry D - the dirtiest cider you can get.'

See, everybody has done it at some point in there life! I guess Strongbow is more your game these days though.

As for you Davey, i do hope your not a father and if you ain't don't be thinking about ever becoming one.

See, everybody has done it at some point in there life!

Nope - not me, nothing, never.

Never even been offered anything stronger than a cigarette.

Maybe not everybody but virtually everybody, the fact that so many peopel have taken illegal substances proves that there is no mass respect for the law and that in my mind is akin to a public referendum so IMO that should be enought to scrap the laws. And think of the tax revenues that could be raised. It would save the NHS money too because dealers wouldn't be able to sell as much black market stuff and therefore less junkies would be injecting themselves with ground glass and brick dust.

All these horror stories about rat poison are urban legends, they drugs are usually cut with glucose.

They're not urban legends, they're just rare. Dealing bad shit doesn't get you repeat custom so most "reputable" dealers don't cut their stuff with harmful chemicals.
The one I've heard more often being used by one time only dealers now is not rat poison but Rohypnol which IMO is far far worse than rat poison, you'll recover from the effects of that much quicker. :\

See, everybody has done it at some point in there life! I guess Strongbow is more your game these days though.

Never in your life. I drink beer, or if on a night out spirits (Vodka Redbull/Brandy/Southern Comfort are my favourites at the mo)

Getting stoned first does actually have a completely different effect. But it can make the alcohol taste nasty, and will still make you sick if you drink a lot.

It's best when you have 4 or 5 beers so your starting to feel a little tipsy, then have a nice fat reefer. Just mongs you out nicely, making you a little giggly and leaving you grinning like a cheshire cat :D and you'll sleep like a baby.

The one I've heard more often being used by one time only dealers now is not rat poison but Rohypnol which IMO is far far worse than rat poison, you'll recover from the effects of that much quicker. :\

Some dealers use Warfarin which is used to kill rats, but it's also used to thin the blood on humans, this actually has a better effect for intravenus drug takers as it helps prevent clots.
The stories are true, but out of context.

I agree about Rohypnol, it's a horrific thing to put into drugs. As is Ketomin, unless you know you're taking it. Fucking horse tranquilisers in an E?

The other one is Strychenine. Nasty, but not actually put into drugs to kill people. Mostly to thin blood and obviously create more bulk and profit out of a drug.

2nd option
good thread.

I don't much bother with drugs anymore ,because of the reasens illustrated above ,whilst I happy to take something if it is what i'm told it is ,I tdon't want to take some bullshit additive that I have no Idea about.
I'll have a beer ,because the only usefull con additive is extra water,and i'll have a cigarette,because the tobacco indusstry saw fit to get me addicted.
The others I'll only have on social occasions (ie if i'm offered it free)

Some dealers use Warfarin...........

My sister in law takes warfarin, but then she has 4 toes per foot (both mean and average, ashley) and smokes Hamletswhich are in my opinion the lowest drug available to mankind.

Other than that, and under a weight of Smyrnan fish (don't ask) I find myself agreeing with cappy. More for practical reasons, since I habite a Dubai and the penalties make the risks stupidly unworthwhile. On the other hand for my return to the UK (it'll be in the papers) I have arranged a night of hashish already (2 weeks or so ahead) and am planning to raid my li'l stash of morphine, the connoiseurs choice - of which I am so afraid of addiction I do it maybe twice a year - but fuck, it's a real holiday so what.

Would any of you say you were fit to drive, look after kids, work, act responsibly, control your finances, control your habit, get yourself home from a club safely etc after taking drugs?

And if you say you are, there are others who aren't, and that's why I don't want to see drugs being made legal. The streets will be full of people falling over and kids running around everywhere getting run over by drivers off their faces.

Same is obviously true for the big one: alcohol. I suppose if drugs were legalised then the penalties you get for being over the drink drive limit would be extended to drugs? Which drugs? Taken in what form?

At least alcohol is easy to measure as it's one drug taken in one form. I wonder if the enforcement over drug use is a reason it hasn't been legalised yet...

The streets will be full of people falling over and kids running around everywhere getting run over by drivers off their faces.

Same is obviously true for the big one: alcohol. I suppose if drugs were legalised then the penalties you get for being over the drink drive limit would be extended to drugs? Which drugs? Taken in what form?


These statements contradict each other. Firstly you say that legalising a substance that causes impairment in judgement and motor control would cause the streets to be full of "kids running around everywhere getting run over by drivers", then mention the fact that alcohol is legalised and frequently used. The image you described is not prevailant here or in any country where drug laws are more liberal and road safety more lax.

Of course, it is true that there would be increased dangers on the roads from certain drugs.
You mentioned getting home from clubs, most people take stimulants in clubs, and although this is not a safe way to drive, it is considerably safer to drive under the influence of of a stimulant rather than an opiate. The police say that the main danger that drivers under the influence of stimulants face is that they would over-react and drive too slowly, etc. I know that's not safe, but having experienced both being pissed and under a stimulant, I know which state I'd be safer driving under.

This is the arguement of people misusing drugs, it occurs in all drugs, the difference is the personal responsibility that someone has. If people behave irresponsibly with alcohol, we don't ban it, we punish them (a night in the cells, a license ban, etc).

Would any of you say you were fit to drive, look after kids, work, act responsibly, control your finances, control your habit, get yourself home from a club safely etc after taking drugs?

Depends what drugs you are talking about.
I can get myself home from a club safely regardless of what state im in.
I have drove stoned more times than I can count, never had a crash yet.
I wouldnt want to have to look after children whilst under the influence though. But then again I dont have kids...

At least alcohol is easy to measure as it's one drug taken in one form.

Eh? Marie, thats not even an argument. Alcohol comes in god knows how many different forms. (Beer, cider, spirits, wine etc) We measure it through the percentage of the drink that is pure alcohol (ie beer might be 5%, vodka would be 40%)
Why couldnt this system be used for other drugs?

Would any of you say you were fit to drive, look after kids, work, act responsibly, control your finances, control your habit, get yourself home from a club safely etc after taking drugs?


Most of those things I wouldn't even attempt under the influence of drugs. But I think judgement is less impaired under the influence of, say, ecstasy than it is with alcohol, so I'd definitely say that you're more compentent to choose a safe taxi or night bus than you are when drunk.


And if you say you are, there are others who aren't, and that's why I don't want to see drugs being made legal. The streets will be full of people falling over and kids running around everywhere getting run over by drivers off their faces.


That's just silly. What makes you think that society will be more intoxicated if we acknowledge and control drug consumption. You might not be aware of it, but even if you live in a small town, there is at least one pub in your town centre wehere people are taking cocaine. Every single nightclub, without exception, has people insode who are on some kind of non-legal drug.


Same is obviously true for the big one: alcohol. I suppose if drugs were legalised then the penalties you get for being over the drink drive limit would be extended to drugs? Which drugs? Taken in what form?


Of course. The penalties should be the same for anyone caught driving while intoxicated or otherwise impaired cognitively.


At least alcohol is easy to measure as it's one drug taken in one form. I wonder if the enforcement over drug use is a reason it hasn't been legalised yet...

As could be LSD, Ecstasy, cannabis, etc. This really isn't an argument in favour of continued criminalisation. Would you prefer your 18-year-old son or duaghter to be buying drugs form a legal, controlled source or buying heavily-cut shit from someone who also deals hard drugs and possibly has a criminal record?

ps: I honestly don't understand your last sentence.

As could be LSD, Ecstasy, cannabis, etc. This really isn't an argument in favour of continued criminalisation.

LSD surely needs to be illegal. OK, so you can't get addicted to it... that's fine... however, I'm terrified of the idea of there being more hallucinating people on the streets. Legalisation will surely lead to proliferation, the popularity of alcohol attests to that. It would be like having blind people on the streets who don't know they're blind. RTA nightmare.

Possibly if there were LSD houses, where you could go for your little LSD experience, but they don't let you out again until the full effect of the drug has worn off. Then if you do something crazy, you'll only hurt the other junkies.

Is there any evidence to support that LSD can have 'aftershocks' years later, causing hallucinations at an inconvenient point in later life?

LSD surely needs to be illegal. OK, so you can't get addicted to it... that's fine... however, I'm terrified of the idea of there being more hallucinating people on the streets. Legalisation will surely lead to proliferation, the popularity of alcohol attests to that. It would be like having blind people on the streets who don't know they're blind. RTA nightmare.


This is a common misconception about LSD to which people who have never used it often fall prey. In fact, the pattern of use for LSD is not, and never could be, similar to that of alcohol. The reason is to do with the way the body tolerates it - it becomes hyper-tolerant very quickly, ending in a situation where after around five days of repeated escalating doses, no amount of the drug will prduce any sort of effect.

Also, the LSD 'hangover' is different from the alcohol hangover. While more pleasant in many ways, the LSD user is far less inclined to repeat the dose than the alcohol user. The typical LSD user doses around twice a year because more frequent doses are neither interesting nor pleasant.

Possibly if there were LSD houses, where you could go for your little LSD experience, but they don't let you out again until the full effect of the drug has worn off. Then if you do something crazy, you'll only hurt the other junkies.


Your use of the word 'junkie' is ill-chosen in this context, although I'm sure you were aware of that.

Is there any evidence to support that LSD can have 'aftershocks' years later, causing hallucinations at an inconvenient point in later life?

I've heard of (and experienced) some mild examples of this happening, but stories like 'mother boils baby in LSD flashback' are invariably impossible to verify.

Every time someone proposes that people should be allowed to do what they like to themselves, and that the continuing prohibition of cetain drugs is immoral and impracticable, someone pipes up with "But not x! Every drug should be legal except x!" X is usually heroin or crack. But the truth is that the ratio of crack users to crack addicts is far less than the ratio of alcohol addicts to alcohol users. It's just that, you don't hear about it in the newspaper every time an alcoholic dies.

The few times I attemt to drive whilst under the influence of a joint or two ,I drive about 0.5 MPH ,keep to the left ,and even hedghehogs taunt me whilst they casually cross the road.

A429 it is then, woose. Nursey has been primed. When I'm stoned I drive at the speed of the slowest thing available; follow caravans, send SMS, phone. Perhaps we could just touch bumpers and then move on to the bear?

i love drugs, but i can't get any here where i've been living for the past few years. i've grown a bit and in the absence of anything else, i drink. i know which i prefer, and have preferred for 20 years. weed, and the odd adventure on other substances. i've been a responsible dad while stoned, and i've taken care of people when caned. drug use and abuse are easily confused, both by people who have no experience of use/abuse, but also when you yourself are feeling shit, start by having a pint and ending up wasted in the gutter in Soho Square, or wherever.
i love drugs, and i'll never stop using them when the opportunity arises, but so far i've not killed or robbed any grannies, nor fucked up my life, but maybe that's 'cos drugs have always been ancillary rather than primary in my life, and i've worked, studied and so forth. i have never known the terminal hopelessness of full-term economic deprivation and social exclusion. that kills, whether through alcohol or drug abuse, not the substance, itself.