Would you object to carrying an ID card?
If so, why do you feel we shouldnt?
Do you think it will stop any of the crime and terrorism they are proclaiming it will?

I personally wouldnt object to carrying a ID card i would object to having to pay for it though. When i worked in a offlicence a few years back it was so hard some times to judge a teens age especially the girls when they all dressed up with makeup etc so i was really glad when they brough tin the id cards that over 18s could get to prove thier age. Thats just one aspect of us having ID cards that i think would be good :)

It wouldnt bother me to have an id card. I carry enough id around with me anyway, so another card would make little difference.

Im not sure I would want my retinas scanned though, sounds dangerous.

ID cards, no real problem with them, but why do we have to pay £35 for something that is compulsory in all but name?

needed to get a job AND cliam benefits yet you don't have to carry on...

No way to ID cards.
I know who I am, and I don't need to prove it to anyone else.

meh - "they" could track you now if "they" wanted too, another ID card is going to make very little difference, but paying for it is jus another stealth tax, that pisses me off, passports are already expensive enogh :(

I don't have a problem with having to use an ID card, but I wouldn't want to have to pay for it. That's just an insult.

Dont like it one bit.
Who are the government running the country for?
If the answer is us,then why haven't we been asked?
Compulsory?Fucking disgusting.
Are we adults or not?
It amazes me just how much people dont mind being treated like babies.

Yes, I object. But since the government can already check where I've been & who I've been calling, what I use my credit card for, record the movements of my car it doesn't really matter.

Brausen you and 1 or 2 others are missing the key issue.
You bought that car, your not force fed a credit card.
There's a diference between the things youve just mentioned and being given a card that you must carry around with.
The issue is blatantly obvious, it's freedom.

I would object. We already carry enough cards. Governents are too big and too involved on our lives as it is.

If you go to virtually any Country in the World, you'll see they carry ID Cards without complaint. What's the problem? It should make applying for things such as Loans a lot easier than the usual half a dozen forms of Identity you need now.
I like most do object to paying for it though, the Government want us to have it , they fund it.

Microchip everyone!

It'll just be another big ineffective load of old shite just like everything else the fucking pathetic bastards do. How long do they think it will take professional crims to get round it, why don't they fuck off and do something useful.

*xen* spouted:
Microchip everyone!

At birth.

*xen* spouted:
Microchip everyone!

bah !

i resent the idea of this, the notion of control it gives the govenment and whoever else has access to this information, i resent the fact it will be abused. SInce when has it been outside of the interests for a government to know exactly what people are doing ?? call that a democracy.

/me moves to canada

that's why those addy's went to 32 bit, ip 6.1 or sumt.
mines 0001 1001 001 1001 0001 0110 0110 0001 0001 1001 001 1001 0001 0110 0110 0001

Everytime you use a cashcard at a bank or in a shop you're being tracked. I also have one of those reward cards to get money off when I'm shopping, so the store knows exactly what i'm buying.

I remember a story a few years ago of an incident in the US. A guy slipped on some liquid in a supermarket and injured himself. He sued the supermarket. They checked the record of his reward card and due to the amount of booze he'd bought over time, they tried to reason that he was an alcoholic and had fallen because he was drunk. They didn't win, but it's still an example of what can happen.

That's why I buy my booze with cash!

Here in the USA, I carry a photo drivers licence which is basically ID anyway.

Texas drivers licenses have a picture, barcode, and magnetic strip, though I have yet to see the strip, or barcode utilized. They are safeguarded against falsification, and are used as legal ID anywhere it's required. My current one doesn't expire until 2008.

I don't know if it's state-wide, but some counties require anyone over 13 to carry a picture ID. It looks like the DL, but without the driving privileges. At 16, one can test, and receive a DL, in place of the ID.

I purchase a proof positive card of my son every year from school. It has his photo, and thumb-print, and will be used in case of abduction, etc.

I don't mind.

i think that the only people who would have a real problem with it would be those with something to hide,dole fiddlers,illegals,etc....so it could actually save taxpayers a good deal of money if they were introduced....

Actually, you should be worried about people watching over you trying to manipulate you anyway. If they can track where you go what you do, then it's all a form of privacy invasion. The difference is, that the ID card isn't optional.

I would advocate that a small explosive microchip be attached to everyoness juglar vein which detonates when you break the law.

Only people who would have a real problem with it would be those with something to hide,dole fiddlers,illegals,etc

Everyone breaks a law. There is NOT going to a single person really who hasn't. The only thing is that some of those laws you consider to be so minor that as a one off it don't matter.

Also, there are others you might not even be aware of. But they are still there. So, all in all, that's a crap idea. :P

You're riight, it's a crap idea. How about a small rocket instead, which fires the offenders head fifty feet in the air?

*xen* spouted:
Only people who would have a real problem with it would be those with something to hide,dole fiddlers,illegals,etc

and anyone who uses a mobile phone or has one used within close vicinity to them.

splat, altough i would think that a person would be more likely to make a thumlppffff type noise tho, esp when expoded using a small charge.

But this is a silly idea come on you will be saying that we all have to have barcode tattoos next - didn't hitler do something like that ??

*xen* spouted:
You're riight, it's a crap idea. How about a small rocket instead, which fires the offenders head fifty feet in the air?

How about we test out whether it works on you for 30 years, and if your still alive, then maybe consider it :)

*xen* spouted:
You're riight, it's a crap idea. How about a small rocket instead, which fires the offenders head fifty feet in the air?
maybe we could get the jack ass boys to try it?

hello good people.

tell me, what do you think of the idea of id cards. This question has probably been asked before but I really would like to know. I don't like the idea of them because it makes me feel like I am under scrutiny, tight control and I don't like the thought of having all my information so easily accessible. People argue that if you have nothing to hide then it doesn't matter, because it is a way of reducing crime, fraud etc. So what do YOU think?

Haloo,

I think it's just another thing to check when you go out the house - cigarettes, mobile, car keys, id card

the whole idea is a sham and a waste of time and money. Forged id cards would be ordered off the internet. The only people who will benefit from a scheme are

i. politicians - the usual get tuff on criminals, immigrants, speeding grannies and pot noodles spiel before an election
ii. a computer company which will make the hardware (and make a relatively small donation from their profits to new labour)
iii. marketing companies that the government would sell your details to.
iii. the taxman
iv. the police, who would sooner tackle crime figures on a database than walk a beat.

Fraud stuff is laughable, it'll take five years to get the system running smoothly

By that time it'll be "can we ask you a few personal details in addition to your id card ? and the name of your mother's favourite pet, credid card etc. ? I'm sorry sir/madam, it's just a precaution till the new ID implant comes out, there's been a lot of fraud lately"

bag o' shite idea I think

A greater man than me once said:

I'm not a number, I'm a free man.

I couldn't care less about carrying an ID card, we are already the nation with the highest number of video surveillance cameras per head of population in the world, on top of the points Brausen makes.

Orwell was only out by about 5 yrs, yawwwl.

But if the government think this will prevent terrorism, I fear their thinking is double-unplusgood.

I see no reason why it would thwart terrorism and it would be forged in much the same way that passports and driving licnces are already forged, what it would do is help people prove who they are. Currently I live in a house with all-inclusive rent, I get no utility bills, only my rent bill. I have no bank account, passport or driving licence. I was recently mugged so I no longer have my national insurance card or birth certificate. In short, the only ID I have which banks will accept is my rent statement and they all need two forms so I can't open a bank account. I'm currently trying to find a way round this. If we all had ID cards given to us at birth then there would be no problem, I just flash the card and I'm done.

i haven't read the whole thread. soory but i did read quite a bit of it. why not just redesign the passport into something people can carry around, or just make people carry a passport around. seems like a cheap idea compared to the amount of money they are gogint o spend on intorducging the new cards and most poeple have a passport and if they dont its the best form of id and they should get one.

seems effective, cheap and a good idea.

i'm not against the idea of id cards but i am against the idea of it being used every time i want to buy somethig or travel internaly in a country or buy drink. thats just a big brother scheme. people shoudl just be able to trust one and other but those times are past.

actualy i am against the idea of id cards, but carring around a passport as they do in swisterland(yeah, i cant spell, go jump off a cliff) i think would be a good idea

Oh, please, don't get ID cards! Get microchips, and then my stock will go up!

sod it why bother with cards why not just burn numbers in to everyone's arm, seemed good enough for hitler and it seems that most feel it would compromise our freedoms aside from the being shot at in death trenches you were made to dig yourself etc it's kinda the same thing ni principle. (I think I was very tired when I typed this so I'll probably wake up in the morning to find it makes no sense)

it sounded ok to me ,but then again i;m probs as tired as you.
liked the' thing ni principle', instead of 'thing in principle'..........it reminded moe of monty pythons , the knights that go 'ni' .
As for what you were talking about , sounded gud ,but i'm to knackered to care. As long as the thought police don't come round tonight ,i'm out of it.

martha stewart agrees it's all good

Let the technically savvy see where they go with it, a mobile phone more or less is an ID card.

moxie spouted:
Let the technically savvy see where they go with it, a mobile phone more or less is an ID card.

and so much more too... but at the moment is it openly aknowlged that we are monitored firstly for content of our calls and secondly where we are when we make them ?

Yep.

A mobile phone is also a discretionary item. You can switch it off or leave it at home. You are not obliged by law to carry one.

Still if they wanted to find you, believe me they would.

For what it's worth, I will go to jail rather than carry one. I will not, under any circumstances pay for one or carry it. I'm also probably the last person anyone would suspect of such views since I'm 41 with a tidy job, pay my taxes etc etc. I have no criminal past (or present) and nothing to hide.

It all hinges on how I was treated by certain low-life Police when I was young (and genuinely not misbehaving).

We had (I understand) ID cards durng and after the war. One reason for them being phased out was the complaint of one woman who was repeatedly required to identify herself by a local copper who didn't like her. This will happen again.

The Police have more than enough powers, they are just too crap to use them (Ian Huntley?) and are certainly better at making up excuses than actually doing anything worthwhile.

This idea perverts the principle we're innocent until proven guilty and does absolutely nothing to address crime. The criminals and terrorists must be sniggering away to themsleves.

And I don't trust the government (not just this one - what do you think Thatcher could have done with this one - doesn't bear thinking about)

at the state license bureau a worker bint almost had me get anothet operators licennse as a poked a hole in it to wear as a neclace,
you can't ever win

Urko ,?? 41 ,tidy job,pay your taxes eh what . Dodgy charachter if you ask me!

It's true - I have become (almost) everything I despised when younger. At least I'm not prentending to be a 13 year old girl :)

I don't object in principal to carrying a National ID card, (already have to have a military one). It depends on how it is intended to be used. I would object to it being used to track my movements.

The mil card has my personal details on a mag strip with other such useful info as blood group, allergies to drugs etc.

I could see this as a good argument for ID cards in case of accidents etc where medical help is needed.

some peoples magnetic strip would run out.So they would have to have about 4 or 5 ID cards,to take all the information

They are waste of time, most criminals i've known had no trouble getting passports, stolen id ect they would ignore the system or get around it.
While we "innocent people" would be having heart
attacks every time we get pissed and leave it somewhere.

at the moment in the uk it's a piece of piss to buy a car without registering it, to open a bank account in a false name, to claim multiple benefits, to drive without insurance, etc, etc
all these things would be a little bit harder with a strict form of photo ID

Don't follow this logic - so we have a new ID card - so you can still buy a car at Mr dodgy's car emporium - no questions asked - how has the expensive new ID card helped?

I can still drive around uninsured - how has the ID card helped to stop that?

I don't get it?

because, as in many countries, you would have to present valid ID and insurance to a registering authority before you are able to register a car and get a number plate, so unregistered cars are quite easy to spot. the ID card is just one part of a system

so you'd have to change the number plate system as well - since ours are with the car for it's life?

What about driving with no insurance, how would it help that?

Actually registration plates are NOT with a car for life. You can take them with you otherwise what's the point in paying for Personalised ones.

It's true. You are free to sell or give away your registration number whenever you like. Conversely, you can also buy one from soneone else. The registraion number is matched witht he car and the owner, but is not tied to either.

I feel, though, that like every policy every home secretary has ever produced in order to appear 'tough on crime' that this one will have very little effect on actual crime. It will, however, be very effective at limiting your privacy and rights and make Mr Blunkett look like a big, tough, scary man.

People who argue in favour of ID cards argue for their own chains.

Ok granted the exception about "personalised" plates (which by the way, will be called "tosser" plates when I'm in charge), but for the most part plates remain with the car, not the person, and after Mr tosser takes his plate on, the car reverts to the number it had.

Apart from having to fill in forms for tosser plates, there's nothing in thsi process currently that requires you to identify yourself in person - it's all done (or in many cases not done) by post - so an ID card would be of no possible value whatever.

Some people are prone to losing things.What would happen if i lost my ID card,would my life be put on hold for '24 days' till the system sorted my case out.? Would they provide me with a 'safe house' till my card was reprosseseed. Or could i walk free without one,for a while.
A good case for losing it.

hugo-a-gogo spouted:
...to present valid ID and insurance to a registering authority before you are able to register a car

as i said, the ID card would have to be just one part of a system, other things would have to be changed too

Most other european countries have ID cards, in Britain it is ridiculously easy to pretend to be someone that you aren't. What use are property rights without being able that you are who you say you are?

I see my question about ID cards and car registration and driving uninsured hasn't been answered - because the truth is, an ID card wouldn't help at all.

I agree it's easy to obtain official documents in the wrong name, but the fact that, for example, a reporter was able to obtain a UK driving licence in the name of David Blunkett doesn't provide me with a compelling argument to let the government spend a fortune of my money on another balls-up. They have proved beyond doubt that they can't run the existing licence, passport and vehicle registration systems, so I'm not inclined to let 'em cock up another - why can't they sort out what we've got?

All that aside, I will resist like the Nile any attempt to force me to carry a card and be subject to being told to identify myself by any passing police when they feel like it. All these "those with nothing to fear" merchants have obviously not experienced the misery of being continually stopped by the police when you've done nothing wrong and so in theory should have "nothing to fear"

The police and beaurocracy need to realise they work for US not the other way around.

As for the rest of Europe - I don't notice startlingly low crime or a lack of terror attacks stemming from their draconian ID laws.

i've answered it twice, are you blind? if you have to prove your identity and prove you have insurance before you can register and drive a car, it is a bit harder to get away with not insuring it, right? Britain has a massive problem with unregistered and uninsured cars. because of the new road tax laws 1 million extra cars appeared on the records last year, not new cars, unregistered cars that had been driven around untaxed and quite likely uninsured. Every time there is an accident with an uninsured car, who pays? you do, through the insurance companies who subsidise the uninsured losses

Sorry -realised after I posted that - you had answered.

I'm only too well aware of the unregistered vehicles issue - my argument was that an ID card alone wouldn't solve this - and I think you've agreed that we'd need the ID card PLUS extra beaurocracy for this to be addressed in the way you suggest. The only way to do this for sure would be to require that any time a private car changes hands, both buyer and seller come along to some government office with their full paperwork and register the whole thing.

Truth is that that could be done with needing an extra ID card - but either (or both) would be expensive.

Call me thick (or blind) but I don't get how an ID card stops you driving uninsured - presumably when you tax your car you'll now need an ID card as well, but that only checks you had insurance when you got the tax disk.

well basically, i'm going on the german system (that's where i live)
for me to buy a car in germany: first i have to be registered where i live, then there are two parts of the registration document (equivalent of the v5 logbook in uk) when i buy the car i get the main part and a test certificate, like an MoT, i then get a cover note from the insurance company, then i go along to the registering place with my passport (id card if i was a german) and the cover note. i hand over these things, the clerk checks my name on the computer that i'm registered and gives me a number (or authorises me to use the same one the previous owner had, if it's from the same area), i go and get the plate made if i need a new one, then she put's on two stickers, one showing the registering authority and one showing when the test runs out. then i go and pick up the car and put my plates on

car tax bill comes through the post

if you stopped paying your insurance, the insurance company would still be liable for third party cover, but they would inform the authorities that your car was illegal and the polizei would come and getcha

petty bureaucracy and red tape? you betcha, this is germany! it provides lots of nice government jobs


so yes, id cards can make a difference, but only with lots of ancilliary bureaucracy. is it worth it?

Er .... well I think you know my view - but thanks for expalining it all.

Yes, but we shouldn´t forget that in Germany it´s the vehicle itself that is insured and not the driver - at least in principle. In case of an accident , the identity of the driver is only really of interest to the owner. Maybe this all going a bit off thread, but it shows the kind of infrastructural changes that would be necessary when implementing ID cards in Britain.

Sorry that should've read "explaining" - I have a supplementary question though - what about the dude/dudette selling the car? do they have to go and see the clerk too? (I know they do in some US states - although they mostly don't have ID cards - just a driving licence)

"but it shows the kind of infrastructural changes that would be necessary when implementing ID cards in Britain." - which was my point - you couldn't just introduce ID cards in the UK and instantly address the car related issues.

Can the Police in Gernmany demand to see "your papers" (ID card presumably) at any time? What if you don't have them on you?

The Germans are known for efficiency - Brits aren't :)

the guy selling the car has to get the proof that the other bloke has de-registered it/registered it in his name

their are companies who can do all this fannying about for you, you give them your ID and sign an 'ermachtigung' (empowerment?) giving them permission

yes, the cops can ask to see your papers (in holland and many other places too) if you don't have anything it depends if they trust you or not, or if you've done something wrong, they can go with you to your house or take you into custody and send someone round to your house to get the card

don't believe the myth about german efficiency

compulsory within ten years?

I am now definitely gonna leave this country within that time.
I'm sick of being herded like a sheep already.

Linda Smith was very funny on the news quiz - something like "the fact that 50% of people don't care about their civil liberties just shows how pathetic the British Public is - if a totalitian state was imposed they'd all get into the trucks willingly - as long as they could still get the Mail on Sunday and Harry Potter"

There isn't a shread of evidence that this will do anything positive for us ordinarly folk at all. The criminals and terrorists will be laughing all the way to the next atrocity

I really find it laughable that the government thinks that having ID cards would prevent terrorism and illegal immigration etc. - as if people are fucking idiots. In order to work in the UK you have to have a National Insurance number. There are lots of cases where illegal immigrants do not have one, but they are employed illegally by those who wish to take advantage of their lack of official status with cheap and powerless labour. So we already have the means to stop that, IF IT IS ENFORCED which it isn't.

I think the ID is a pathetic band-aid spin so that the government APPEARS to be doing something about terrorism/illegal immigrants/other 'bad' things.

I am also worried about the negative ways ID cards could be used.

I am not convinced there is a legitimate reason for imposing such a system, until then I'll be against their introduction.

the majority of the british population is stupid. i won't be applying for an ID card at all. if the government thinks it will inflict this shite on me they couldn't be more wrong.

thesmileyone spouted:
the majority of the british population is stupid. i won't be applying for an ID card at all. if the government thinks it will inflict this shite on me they couldn't be more wrong.

Not one to be swayed by the notion of a mandetory, illegal-not-to-own, type set up? I applaud you, sir.

In Australia you need all sorts of ID to do just about anything; join the library, buy a mobile or even pick up your new Visa card from the bank when the old one expires. Drivers licences and Passports are acceptable but if you don't drive and got into the country as a child on your parents passport it's bloody hard to prove who you are.
Couldn't even use my Birth Certificate to get a mobile because it's an English one and Telstra were afraid I'd run up a huge phone bill then return to England without paying it. (This was after we'd established I don't have a passport so I won't be going anywhere.)
The cops used to issue 18+ cards (not that anyone doubts I'm over 18) but nobody accepts it as valid ID. (Can't see why not if they accept cards issued by the police that say you know how to drive.)
I wouldn't mind some legit way of proving I'm me since I practically get accused of being Ma Barker every time I try to use any of the other plastic with my name on it.

(Heard that a Shooter's Licence is acceptable as ID here. Maybe I should try and get one of those since me driving is abysmal and I'm not planning on leaving the country)

The problem is not having an ID scheme as such, but more that David Blunkett wants to make it compulsary. Why do the government need my retina scans, dna, fingerprints etc if we are innocent until proven guilty? I am not a criminal and object to the suggestion that having my fingerprints on file will somehow be useful in solving crimes. It is an absurd suggestion.

Mariska - Thanks - I heard the Aussie government tried to introduce an ID card scheme but there was too much opposition - is that right?

By the way - that "majority of the public" argument is as fatuous as the others - in polls most poeple were against the Iraq war, are in favour of hanging and against a hunting ban, but the politicians manage to ignore that (mostly for good reason imho) when it suits them, so they could do it for this adsurd piece of crap if they wanted.

Maybe ID Cards will stop people (especially the ethnic minority with more identities than Walter Mitty) to stop claiming more than one person's weekly benefits!!!

Anyone who is oppose to ID Cards is supporting benefit fraud. I'm pissed off with paying for these fuckers!!. Let the little shitheads get jobs or fuck off back to their own countries. If you have a problem with ID Cards then don't fucken complain about increased taxes as you're paying for the fucking immigrants.

JonathanX that is both racist and naive. What makes you think that ID cards can't be faked .....??????

Sorry for separate reply hit wrong button.
JonathanX what makes you think that benefit fraud is done by ethnic minorities?
You sound too naive to be true.

urko spouted:
Mariska - Thanks - I heard the Aussie government tried to introduce an ID card scheme but there was too much opposition - is that right?

I seem to remember that. It's one of those issues that resurfaces every once in awhile.

"Anyone who is oppose to ID Cards is supporting benefit fraud"

That isn't true. The means exist at present to reduce benefit fraud, considerably more cheaply than this ID card plan.

On the subject of increased taxes, who do you think is going to pay for the cards? and the computers? and the army of IT folks?

Cards will be issued on the basis of existing ID docs - these can be faked so getting a "proper" card in someone else's name won't be impossible.

The plan is a waste of time and cash to divert your attention and taxes away from the fact that they aren't really doing anything.

The fact is the fraud by big business costs us more than benfit fraud. I am not saying benefit fraud is acceptable, but is a drop in the ocean compared with that of big business.

If you think having ID cards will cut tax then you couldn't be more wrong. It's just going to create another army of bureaucrats. Public sector IT projects are renowned for going way over budget, late and not being able to cope. Hence more wasted money.

Good idea as far as i'm concerned....one thing which struck me whilst on holiday was that whenever one uses a credit card it is automatic that you give them a photographic ID (drivers license in my case) to assure your identity.....i for one was more than happy to do this as i know credit card fraud would die instantly with such a policy...otherwise i think its a good idea as in this day and age it is increasingly important to know who exactly is in the country....i for one think that a suicide bomb is imminent in the UK and any measures that stem this possibility which do not infringe on freedom are essential.

"i for one think that a suicide bomb is imminent in the UK and any measures that stem this possibility which do not infringe on freedom are essential."

Hilarious - what kind of suicide attack do you think an ID card would prevent? All the 9/11 attackers had valid photo ID !

Like Mr Blunkett, I don't think you've thought this one through, have you?

An I.D / Credit card combo would be useless if buying over the net or telephone.

Gonzo spouted:
Good idea as far as i'm concerned....one thing which struck me whilst on holiday was that whenever one uses a credit card it is automatic that you give them a photographic ID (drivers license in my case) to assure your identity.....i for one was more than happy to do this as i know credit card fraud would die instantly with such a policy

Unless the fraudsters suddenly learned how to take photographs....

otherwise i think its a good idea as in this day and age it is increasingly important to know who exactly is in the country....i for one think that a suicide bomb is imminent in the UK and any measures that stem this possibility which do not infringe on freedom are essential.

You think that ID cards will stop people strapping bombs to themselves and blowing other people up?

How, exactly?

What evidence to you have to believe that 'a suicide bomb is imminent in this country'?

How do you think it is possible *ever* to know "exactly who is in the country"? There are 60-odd million of us. The last census missed a million people.

Do you not object to the government attempting to track your every movement?

CindyS spouted:
JonathanX that is both racist and naive. What makes you think that ID cards can't be faked .....??????

Because, they will use biometric smart card technology. Believe me, I know I have been in the industry too long. Only one person has ever hacked into a smart card. It took him 3 months and that only gave him access to the one card, every other card would take him or her an equal amount of time. Thank you.

From my understanding, correct me if i'm wrong JX, but from what ive read/ seen on t.v. they will be using fingerprints or retna scan/ dna or a combo of all 3 to ensure that you are who you say you are. Therefore getting the double sided sticky tape and the polaroid camera wouldnt work.

As for the main issue i'm pro I.D. May not prevent very oranised criminals but will take out the "less-able" criminals (or what ever were calling thick scum bags in p.c. terms these days.

Why should I have to carry a card when I don't claim any sort of benefits, i am not a criminal and certainly am not a terrorist?

If some people want to carry ID then that is fine, but I don't.

ahhh,those that misconstrue purposefully add nothing to discussion,whilst trying desperately to increase their kudos in the eyes of others...
ID cards are a start ....thats all,and a start that needs to be made...i mean you have to start somewhere don't you?
It does seem like a drop in the ocean considering how many people have been let into the country unchecked,admittedly.
But its best to try,rather than blindly believing (like Daz) that all immigrants are angels and anyone who does not agree is a bigot...i think minds will change when the homicide bombers start in the UK.

But its best to try,rather than blindly believing (like Daz) that all immigrants are angels and anyone who does not agree is a bigot...

I'm a tad confused here Gonzo. I'm not an immigrant - does that mean I don't have to carry ID?

CindyS spouted:
JonathanX that is both racist and naive. What makes you think that ID cards can't be faked .....??????

My last answer shut you up then!! Good!!!

JonathanX spouted:
Believe me, I know I have been in the industry too long. Only one person has ever hacked into a smart card.

But the cards are not in the public domain yet, hence the opportunities to obtain such technologies are slim. Whilst the cards may be pretty clever the same underlying storage mechanisms remain - if people can hack into the Pentagon's servers then I am sure they could do the same to us. If people can hack 128 encryption then I am damn sure they can hack into whatever technology the government uses.

The Pro-ID card people still cannot convince me that I should have a card. The fact is the police have wanted such a system for years, and they are using the terrorism excuse to get it through the back door. I foresee harassment of ethnic minorities with the excuse of checking their ID cards. We had the IRA attacks in the seventies and eighties, but the Tories changed their minds about introducing such a scheme.

Jonathan do you work in the smart card sector? Sorry is this is a patronising question.

thesmileyone spouted:


But the cards are not in the public domain yet, hence the opportunities to obtain such technologies are slim. Whilst the cards may be pretty clever the same underlying storage mechanisms remain - if people can hack into the Pentagon's servers then I am sure they could do the same to us. If people can hack 128 encryption then I am damn sure they can hack into whatever technology the government uses.

The Pro-ID card people still cannot convince me that I should have a card. The fact is the police have wanted such a system for years, and they are using the terrorism excuse to get it through the back door. I foresee harassment of ethnic minorities with the excuse of checking their ID cards. We had the IRA attacks in the seventies and eighties, but the Tories changed their minds about introducing such a scheme.

Jonathan do you work in the smart card sector? Sorry is this is a patronising question.

Yes smiley I do. I can't get use to people saying, "I'm not a criminal and so I don't have to carry one" or "I haven't done anything wrong so I don't need one". If they are innocent then that's great. I'm not a criminal either but if we all carry them, then maybe the police can identify more readily the suspicious characters. At the end of the day I want to live happily in a safe world. I want my children to have a future in a safe world. I don't think for one minute that ID cards will prevent terrorism and I've never said they would. I doi firmly believe that it will help to not prevent crime but to help bring to justice those who do offend and definitely eradicate benefit fraud. The savings on fraud could pay for the scheme.

Hmm. You'd think... until someone actually stole your identity.

JonathanX spouted:


if we all carry them, then maybe the police can identify more readily the suspicious characters.

This depends on us all being able to trust the Police not to abuse their powers. Mostly they don't - but as I know from the bitter experience of being stopped every five minutes when I was younger, you can't always trust them. For those of you that haven't had this experience let me say that despite the fact that I'd never done a thing wrong and no matter how nice I tried to be about it, they always treated me like dirt - in their eyes I was a suspicious character. I don't think they need any more powers or any daft cards - they need to do their job. We could stop a lot of benefit fraud more cheaply and provide employment too without the need for this scheme.

I'd have to agree with Urko on that. My husband, when he was a teen, was stopped by the police and asked why he was wearing tennis shoes. That was followed by 'Have you been in trouble with the police before?' (like he was in trouble just for walking down the street.) One of my sons was pulled over and searched when he was walking back from school. Why? For carrying a back-pack. Coming home from SCHOOL, officer. Books, Geddit


I'd have to agree with Urko on that one. The cops pulled my son over in broad daylight once for walking down the street with a backpack. He was coming home from school at the time so why wouldn't he have a backpack? Books!
My husband got stopped when he was young for wearing tennis shoes. Why are you wearing them? Have you ever been in trouble with the police before? You'd think with them being so understaffed and all they'd concentrate on people who gave some sort of impression of having committed a crime.

Sorry about the above. Don't know what key I hit but thought it had deleted so started again. Mods feel free to do what you want with it.

I got stopped by a copper once who was convinced he'd knicked me for something in the past. He hadn't (because I haven't been knicked - and I mostly haven't done anythg wrong apart from the occasional bit of speeding).

Do you think he would listen?

Actually it might be an idea to make the coppers identify themselves at the same time - I'm sure they'd love to show you their card at they demand to see yours - yeah right.

This is an issue on which I truly couldn't care less.

The fact is that the police do stop black people more often than white people. The ID scheme will give them a legitimate excuse to do so in the future.

If it's simply down to benefit fraud then why don't we use entitlement cards for people wanting to claim benefits? This seems to work out well enough in the US.

Totally pointless. It would be a gargantuan waste of money in my opinion.

carrying an id card wouldnt bother me one bit..

then again i would put it down in a safe place and forget where i put it sooner or later.....


ok . which one of you has got my lighter ?

i had it when i came on this board and its gone now.

In the news again are government proposals to introduce compulsory identity cards for British Citizens. Originally intended to 'fight terrorism and tackle illegal immigration' theyre now being peddled as a means to "protect people in the fight against identity fraud and organised crime".

Do you think the cards are a good idea, or are we walking into a 'nanny state?'

For full bbc news story http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3568468.stm

I don't think ID cards in themselves are a bad idea (although, as we all have passports, I can't help but think that it's a duplication of function). What worries me is the 'national database', the information that will be stored on it and the question of who will be given access to it.

The above concerns are not that due to fears that a totalitarian governement might seize the database and use it for their own ends, but that the development of a database of this kind is exactly the sort of thing that a totalitarian government would do.

Put simply, power should never be trusted. This database represents an enormous (mis-) investment of trust in a barely-accountable power.

And 'tackling immigration'? The race card again? Exactly how many of those does Blunkett have secreted up his sweaty, ill-fitting sleeve?

I think it's a good idea, it won't stop terrorism or illegal immigration as the people involved in these scams will have the money to obtain fraudulent ones. It'll stop low profile things like benefit fraud though which is good so I won't be paying tax to fund the :chav:'s white lightening.

What it will also do is make it easier for us to prove who we are. At the moment, I live in a house where my rent is inclusive of all utilities, the only bill I recieve is my rent bill and my mobile phone bill, I currently can't upgrade my bank account to a better one as under the money laundering regulations they can only accept certain forms of Id, they'll take my driving licence as one but they won't take one of their own bank statements. I have to apply for a passport just to change accuonts with my own bank. If I had a national ID card I could just flash that and there wouldn't be a problem.

To be honest dominoid I dont see the problem with applying for a passport, it only takes about two weeks.
An I.D card of the type the Government are proposing is eventually going to cost billions, after inevitable upgrades to the technology down the years, I wonder whos going to pay for that then?
It wont stop illegal immigrants or terrorism, which are Blunketts 'trumpcards' when trying to convince the population of I.D cards validity (the 9/11 terrorists were in the U.S legally). Surely the money is better spent, wisely, elsewhere.
And do we really trust the Government or even a 'seperate agency' with a database of our personal details, down to the most minute detail, as proposed? Do we trust them not to abuse and exploit it as they do everything else?
And even if we trust this Government what about one thats in power 20 or 30 years down the line? By then its too late.
I doubt I'll be convinced that I.D cards are not only a huge waste of money but a potential danger to our civil liberties.

To be honest dominoid I dont see the problem with applying for a passport, it only takes about two weeks.

I'd rather not have ot pay the best part of fifty quid and wait two weeks in order to be able to open an account with my own bank. I'm getting a passport and I will need it for overseas travel at some point so it's not exactly a waste of money but it's unlikely I will be using it for any more than ID for at least a year or two so I really hadn't planned on getting one yet. If I had an ID card it wuold not be such a hassle.

Also, I don't see the reason people are so worried about the government having data on us, Tesco probably know more about me than anybody, my company have full access to all my medical records, the inland revenue know everywhere I've ever lived, everyone I've ever worked for and the amount of every wage packet I've ever had. With all this data floating around on me if something bad was gonna happen as a result then it probably would have happened by now. AFAIK the data held will be identical to that which is already held on the electoral register but with a retina scan and photograph added, so I really don't understand what the fuss is all about.

I am waiting to hear how exactly it will cut down on benefit fraud. All the arguments the government put forward are very vague. The US has its own Welfare cards but thats only for people trying to claim benefit. Why should people not claiming benefit have to possess an ID card that is there to stop benefit fraud.

As far as the database would be concerned, most existing public sector IT projects have gone massively over budget.

If you couldn't produce an ID card you couldn't claim benefit, benefit cheats would be low income so far less likely to be able to afford to pay for fake ID cards like terrorists or organized criminals

Most benefit fraud is probably in the form of people signing on and then working cash in hand. How is an ID card going to stop that?
Also, I wonder what ID they'll want before they'll an ID card? Just a thought.

I'd rather not have to pay the best part of fifty quid and wait two weeks in order to be able to open an account with my own bank.

Thats fair enough dominoid, I have nothing against voluntary I.D cards. Though you will still have to pay for an I.D that will probably be more hassle than its worth. And with Governments track record on reliability, wont work most of the time anyway. 'Sorry Mr dominoid our system's down you cant as much as pick your nose for the next 24 hours'.

Meanwhile, terrorists, criminals and fraudsters carry on regardless, in fact it will probably bring in more work, it'll stop 'low profile benefit cheats' though, wont that be something.

Merged 2 threads covering the same topic.

Can people please check a subject isn't already being discussed before creating a new thread. Thanks.

Anyone remember Wile E Coyote's business card from the old Bugs Bunny cartoon?
It read simply -

WILE E COYOTE
GENIUS

I laughed for about a week at that.

The Id cards will start off simply enough but give them a couple of years of ' updating " and you will see the real purpose.
The country will be split in to many small zones and your card will be endorsed with just the zone you live in. In order to move from that zone to another, you will have to apply for that zone to be added, stateing your reasons. You will have course have to pay an extra fee.
Why would this be you ask ?
Governments are more scared of the people they govern than they are of terrorists. Just think. How many people would have been at the anti war demo's, countryside alliance march, poll tax riots, fuel protests in London if they had had ID cards then Do you think you could have applied for the London zone so that you could go down there and protest ?.
This government is desperate to stop us moving about this small island. Sky high fuel duties, road charging, limited rail services, just some of the ways it is using to try and reduce the mobility of the population. Its all about control. The day will come when you have to show your ID when buying petrol. A messsage will flash up saying you have bought your entitlement for this month. You try to purchase an extra zone to have a holiday there and the message flashes up " Hoilday limit exceeded ".
These cards will not be about making Britain safer , though they wil ride into town on the back of that message. They are about controling every single one of us.