What are you thoughts on God? Asuming that there is a supreme being (I belive that there is) how does s/he factor into your life and shape your view of the world?

Personally I'm a believer!!! I make an effort to attend my place of worship weekly. I have a sense of peace and comfort in God's house that is completely lacking every where else in my life. Aside from my own little world. I can see hope people would totally be pissed off at God. So many evil things are done in his name. I feel bad for God.

" In his name ", don't mean the dude agrees.

I do not believe that there is a God. Was not religion introduced to control the masses?

I appreciate that everyone has their own beliefs and I respect that. I do object to it being rammed in peoples faces or looked upon as a poor lost soul who need saving from the devil as a non-beliver.

Prove God exists and I'll believe. On a plus side Churches do have some architecture and I don't object to going inside a church to look around or indeed if I have to, go to a religious service. I do not join in with prayers however, choosing to say nothing, keep my eyes open and not bow my head.

If God exists then God is a sadist.

DoodleBug spouted:
I do not believe that there is a God. Was not religion introduced to control the masses?

In a way if you think about monotheism was invented to keep women down. Before there was God the father. Women were goddesses. Then, guys got really jealous when they realized exaclty how totally powerful women are (life is created inside of women, all guys do is stick it in and pull it out) So they figured one God,... of course he's a guy! I can't believe the women fell for it!!

Prove God exists and I'll believe. On a plus side Churches do have some architecture and I don't object to going inside a church to look around or indeed if I have to, go to a religious service. I do not join in with prayers however, choosing to say nothing, keep my eyes open and not bow my head.

How can you prove that ANYTHING exists?

gratuitously pinched from another thread on the board....


Way i see it, religion is a hangover from the days when we wern't so much stupider as didnt have the scientific or technological means to research and analyse things that the all powerful 'god' can be accountable for.

Example: Thunderstorms. God must be angry. How the fuck were cavemen and ancient greeks and all them supposed to know it was static electricity building up in the clouds? they couldnt. But we do.

Dinosaurs. People have dug Dinosaur bones up for centuries, and didnt know what the hell they were, cos there was no mention of these great fucken beasts in the bible. So they dreamt up dragons, and monsters and loads of other shit that STILL wasnt in the bible, but it sufficed as an explanation (there's a fucking great Bill Hicks sketch about this "doesn't it worry you? that god is up there, FUCKING with your head??!?!") now we have the technology and know-how to recreate these things, and chart evolution. But still you get people clinging to the story that god built everything in seven days. no no no no no. Nice little story, but no.

Religion is little more than a nice set of rules (and some fucken wierd ones, be fair!) to live by. Most of which are common sense anyway. In the olden days, when people were stupid, it was a nice way of controlling the population, and answering all those questions they had running around their little heads. Now (in organised form) its a bloated, peverted, power hungry irrelivance. Prostituted as an excuse for peeps to kill other peeps they don't like and for nobodies to have a say and boss other nobodies around. If there is a god, i'm pretty sure he'd be pissed off the way his flock are behaving towards each other, all on his name.

Hopefully, like Red Dwarf, they'll find the lost first page of the bible..."all the characters and events in this book are fictitious..all similarites are coincidental.."

I don't so much believe in a supreme being, but I sure hope for an afterlife. The thought that there is a place where I will be reunited with my deceased loved ones is comforting, which makes me want to believe in God. In times of trouble, I pray, but at the same time, wonder if I'm wasting my time. I'm on a see-saw.

I envy the sense of peace "true believers" possess. They put their full faith in God, and regardless of their troubles, they know their lives are in His hands, and don't stress. I can't get over all the scientific knoweledge we now possess, to believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent creative force the way the faithful do. Too many doubts.

But then, there is the Shroud of Turin. The most awesome mystery concerning God that we have. Just think if it's real...

Lintuk,

One day man will prove the existance of God. Do you know who Tiehad De Chardin is? Think about Albert Einstein, and the proven existance of neutrinos. God is probably not the God in the Bible but I think s/he definately exists.

I believe that there is something that is pulling the strings - why else would we do anything. All our human emotions have been created in order for us to cooperate and accept the fact that we are not in control of our own futures.

Wether this being be a god or a machine i do not know, but i do believe there is something. And in believing this, i feel that the inevitability of death is easier to accept.

We will not live forever because we aren't supposed to.

How can you prove that ANYTHING exists?

It doesn't.

I'm pretty sure there is something out there but how can we go by what someone wrote in books 100's of years ago ? the writings in the bible could all be the writings of a mad man for all we know ?

I do believe in life after death, i have contacted someone i know through a medium.

I’m not sure I fully understand the concept of God. It seems to mean a lot of different things to a lot of people. I believe that the Universe is a very big weird and fantastic place, of which I perceive a small fraction though my limited sensory organs and consciousness and understand less. That is beauty enough in itself for me and transcends any Christian or other religious view which, in my experience, seem to try to rationalise things beyond the scope of human understanding. In doing so I feel they dull the true wonder of the real Universe around us and consequently do it a great disservice. So in summary, the concept of God is, to me, I suppose irrelevant.

Not sure what is meant by the statement "How do you prove ANYTHING exists". I exist because I am typing this drivel. You exist because you are reading this drivel.

You'll be telling us that Santa Claus and the Tooth fairy are real next.

What if I said I was God? Would you believe me? Or would you need proof?

unordinarychild spouted:
I believe that there is something that is pulling the strings - why else would we do anything. All our human emotions have been created in order for us to cooperate and accept the fact that we are not in control of our own futures.



I would have to disagree with you. Science has pretty much proven that man has free will. Read Norbert Weiner's theroy of polynomial chaos. I don't know why you would do anything, but I try very hard to make empathy my motivating force. I know that I feel badly when I am treated badly so I try not to act in a way that would make others feel badly. I don't how well I could comprhend that concept without God in my life. But that's just what works for me.

Xen

Only the present moment is real.

DoodleBug spouted:
Not sure what is meant by the statement "How do you prove ANYTHING exists". I exist because I am typing this drivel. You exist because you are reading this drivel.

You'll be telling us that Santa Claus and the Tooth fairy are real next.

What if I said I was God? Would you believe me? Or would you need proof?

You can't prove that you are typing the drivel any more than I can prove that I am reading it.

If you said you were God, it wouldn't be a matter of me believeing you or requiring proof. I would most certainly question your sanity.

Big Neutrino spouted:


You can't prove that you are typing the drivel any more than I can prove that I am reading it.

If you said you were God, it wouldn't be a matter of me believeing you or requiring proof. I would most certainly question your sanity.

I respect you for having your beliefs and maybe one day I'll change. Who knows.

Have a good one, and Yes, I am insane.

Big Neutrino spouted:


I try very hard to make empathy my motivating force. I know that I feel badly when I am treated badly so I try not to act in a way that would make others feel badly.



I think that's how many of us try to live our lives Big Neutrino and it's based on common sense.I personally don't think a religious or God element is required in that equation but if your faith helps to empathise and propagate goodwill towards others in less fortunate circumstances then it's a good thing.

I think my mum is a shining example of a good Christian but then I see around me just as many bad Christians as I do bad atheists.So I think human nature always remains fundamentally the same, irrespective of religion.

i do not believe in ONE GOD. i use to think there was no god or goddess or any supreme being, but as i go through life i start to question my previous belief. i think there are many supreme beings out there. and that makes sense to me as to why there are so many different religions. who has the right to say that there god is the only god out there?

Patrick spouted:

I think that's how many of us try to live our lives Big Neutrino and it's based on common sense.I personally don't think a religious or God element is required in that equation but if your faith helps to empathise and propagate goodwill towards others in less fortunate circumstances then it's a good thing.

I think my mum is a shining example of a good Christian but then I see around me just as many bad Christians as I do bad atheists.So I think human nature always remains fundamentally the same, irrespective of religion.

I agree you don't need God to live a mindful life, that's why I asked if he/she could be irrelevant. I mean what good is being good if you are just being good because you're afraid to go to hell? I'm really glad that your are proud of your Mum. I'm sure that she is really proud of you too.

Big Neutrino spouted:
If you said you were God, it wouldn't be a matter of me believeing you or requiring proof. I would most certainly question your sanity.

i expect you would deny him three times before the cock crows, then nail him him to a bit of wood

how can science proof that man has free will

Hey Tarquin!

Do a Google search "polynomial chaos" and read about it there. It's very interesting and I think it can be applied to the concept of free will.

I dont believe in God as such...but i do believe there is more to this world than just science can explain.

But if i was ever proven wrong about the existance of God of course i would change my opinion :D

I think a believe in a god only leads to war, hate and terror.

I am very confused on this issue as I am the bi-product of a Jehovaha's witness and an Agnostic and my Step Father is a born again Muslim and all three of them seem fecking convinced that their version of the dude with the long white beard (or not) is true.

I think there is somthing out there - its all a bit convenient otherwise but until he/she pops out and says "actually, your are all wrong my name is Bob" I will not be 100% certain.

Don't even get me started on issues of random 'spirituality'. Let's just say that through trial and error I'm a hardcore skeptic.

As for the Christian god, I'd say the 'hell' issue completely destroys his integrity. Just think. All over the bible is says that god loves us all and wants us all in heaven, right? Yet in other places the bible is clearly saying that we're going to be damned if we're not careful.
If this god really was a god, he'd be powerful enough to get us out of this mess whether we sin or not.
So, either the bible god is less powerful than the bible devil, or the writers made a mistake in explaining things. Now I just cannot trust a religion like that.

Cipher spouted:
Don't even get me started on issues of random 'spirituality'. Let's just say that through trial and error I'm a hardcore skeptic.

As for the Christian god, I'd say the 'hell' issue completely destroys his integrity. Just think. All over the bible is says that god loves us all and wants us all in heaven, right? Yet in other places the bible is clearly saying that we're going to be damned if we're not careful.
If this god really was a god, he'd be powerful enough to get us out of this mess whether we sin or not.
So, either the bible god is less powerful than the bible devil, or the writers made a mistake in explaining things. Now I just cannot trust a religion like that.

I am a member of a large world religon, but I have to agree with you. It drives me crazy when people quote The Bible as justifation for all of the intolerant moral judgements that they decide to pass on people. The Bible is a big book you can find a quote that would apply to anything.

DoodleBug spouted:
I appreciate that everyone has their own beliefs and I respect that. I do object to it being rammed in peoples faces or looked upon as a poor lost soul who need saving from the devil as a non-beliver.

I agree with that. I think it's fine that people have something to believe in but it tends to bother me if they are completely dedicated to their religion...as in they "eat, and breath" their religion, and I don't exactly appreciate when others ask you to attend THEIR church if you don't go to one. Some people that I know look to God for every thing and that's great but when they start to tell me that I need to have Him "help me" it kind of gets on my nerves...

I read the review of actress (from Cleveland :) -) Halle Berry new flicker where she wakes up from being a psychiatric hospital doctor, to the inmate/patient.
imagines dogbomber waking up in his worst nightmare.
you never dreamed , look at those girls in Lourdes,

Bubbavirus, you're starting to scare me.

I do not believe in God. As stated previously, it was a way for people to eplain things they otherwsie had no means to, the whole lightening being God's way of showing anger etc.

I also believe that religion is the cause of more of the worlds problems. Each religion teaches their followers that their's is the one true faith, that all others are false, and it is their duty to convert them in order for them to be saved. What a load of bull.

i agree,i think its all bullshit...but people need something to cling to in hard times,and human nature always wants an explanation for everything,so,they invented god.I do not doubt there is something more out there but i would lean towards the supreme power being nature...without concious thought or consideration for humankind.Logically,if god did exist,then the slaughtering of innocents on such a large scale as we see daily on this earth would not happen.(and the free will argument against that is crap as having free will doesnt mean you can burn children etc under any sane maxim)
So,in summing up,if there is a God he is a right bad bastard,so i don't thing there can be.

fundamentally though the idea of "God" is a way to absolve any responsibility from ones actions and, of course, as a way to cope with death.......


....... but you gotta face up to it my friends....... when you die there is nothing..... absolutely nothing..... you wont see your dead relatives in heaven or any of that! There's no activity in your brain... you don't think..... you dont feel its just a whole lot of nothing.

God, religion etc is a load of bollocks. A sheer load of complete bollocks!!!!

Sorry to be so uneloquent there but it's fuckin true and you madmen should wise up and realise it.

ace_mcfly spouted:
fundamentally though the idea of "God" is a way to absolve any responsibility from ones actions and, of course, as a way to cope with death.......


....... but you gotta face up to it my friends....... when you die there is nothing..... absolutely nothing..... you wont see your dead relatives in heaven or any of that! There's no activity in your brain... you don't think..... you dont feel its just a whole lot of nothing.

God, religion etc is a load of bollocks. A sheer load of complete bollocks!!!!

Sorry to be so uneloquent there but it's fuckin true and you madmen should wise up and realise it.

I thank that you are wrong? What happens to your electricity when you die?

I dont know - what does happen to your electricity when you die?

ace_mcfly spouted:
I dont know - what does happen to your electricity when you die?

Well I don't know either. but I know based on the laws of physics that it doesn't just dissappear.

it probably gets earthed and dissipates.....into nothing...

Well, I hope my electricity finds its way into the batteries that power Kylie Minouges vibrator.

People need something to believe in. Need to know that there is something out there that prevents the world cycling into chaos. Need to know that here is something after death. Hence Religion!

I personally believe that each religion is based on the same basic principles of goodness and faith and love. I think that the reason that there are so many religions is that not all people would respond to one religion.

ace_mcfly spouted:
....... but you gotta face up to it my friends....... when you die there is nothing..... absolutely nothing..... you wont see your dead relatives in heaven or any of that!

I also believe in the Circle of life. You are born. You eat the food that was grown in nature and meat from animals. When you die, you end up back in the earth and help nourish the plants that you originally fed on. Also when alive you were the continuation of your parents. Your'e children carry on your legacy into the next generation.

big neutrino sed:

Well I don't know either. but I know based on the laws of physics that it doesn't just dissappear.

okay so this means it MUST somehow manifest itself into a "soul" or something?!!!

Come on - you're grasping for anything to back up your story here! Its like ancient civilizations worshipping the sun as a God or something!

Let me ask you - did "God" create the universe? Did God create man? Do you believe in Darwinian principles?

As much as you want to believe that death is not the end and that there MUST be some purpose to life...... I really feel that these things are fundamentally just ways to help us cope with death, and in the past - and still now but to a lesser extent - as a way to control the behaviour of the masses.

God doesnt exist..... it is a philosophy essential to human evolution....... but perhaps now it has had its day.........

http://www.selectsmart.com/PRO/beliefnet/index1.html

Hm, I am actually Catholic(technically) but what worries me about this test is not that I only matched to the Catholic religion 62%, coming in at 8th place, but that i match 84% to Quakers. :/
1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)
2. Liberal Quakers (84%)

I'm not too sure about all this God malarky, the rational part of my brain tells me that marx was right and its all a nice big comfort/control blanket but i can't help the fact that a part of me thinks, yeah there is something. This might be because i want to believe it, or i've been brought up with it, whatever the reason i find it hard to comprehend how such an elaborate universe came into being without some sort of guidance. I find it hard to accept that everything we do amounts to nothing in the end. I think there is some sort of residing force, and i believe that there are elements of truth within the Bible. I might even believe that Jesus was God/s son reincarnate, but im a bit shaky on that one. I don't think there is any such thing as one true religion, because every religion is governed by humans and is therefore bound to be flawed(rather largely flawed in the majority of cases). I also don't think any benevolant sort of God would expect people to choose the 'correct' religion if there was one anyway, i mean more than anyone God would know we are only human.

Ace,
I'm not sure if the electricity thing means must have a soul. I'm simply suggesting that for me it evidence that possibilty exists.

Did God create the universe? I believe that he/she "kind of set things in motion" to allow it to happen. Do I believe in Darwin? You are damn right that I do!!! Darwinism for me at least justifies capitalism, which I believe is the purest form of human expression possible. I could get into an entire arguement on my belief that Jesus was/is a capitalst. But maybe that's not for this thread.

You are right I am afraid of death (it's part of our natural survival instict). Does death give my life a purpose? Not all, life and it's infinte possibiltes gives me insecntive to wake up every morning.

"God does not exist" that's okay for you, but for the evidence points elsewhere. I could be wrong, who knows.

ace_mcfly spouted:

okay so this means it MUST somehow manifest itself into a "soul" or something?!!!


It's one of the most common arguements put forward by the spiritual masses. However, if they believe that, they'll also have to believe that plants, fruit, vegtables and generators have souls.
All that happens to this bio-electricity made by cells is that it stops being made if the cell dies, just like if said generator gets turned off.
Anyone who's been through secondary school science would have heard about the 'energy cycle' will know that the energy from the cells is transferred to wherever by decay.

Vines i took that test and came up with some interesting results. i'm not sure if they are good or not but it was interesting to find out!

my top 5:
1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2. Neo-Pagan (96%)
3. New Thought (90%)
4. New Age (86%)
5. Mahayana Buddhism (79%)

Big Neutrino spouted:


I would have to disagree with you. Science has pretty much proven that man has free will. Read Norbert Weiner's theroy of polynomial chaos. I don't know why you would do anything, but I try very hard to make empathy my motivating force. I know that I feel badly when I am treated badly so I try not to act in a way that would make others feel badly. I don't how well I could comprhend that concept without God in my life. But that's just what works for me.

Xen

Only the present moment is real.


ok so its just one big coincedence that we all are here in the first place? first off it was a fluke that the big bang happened was it? then that the earth was formed? then that the situation was compatable with the beginings of life? then that humans overcame all the bad shit they had to to finally control the planet?????

this was just a happy little coincedence is it? christ don't be so fucking simplistic.

i believe in god. the cathloic one. however i'm open to being proved wrong on the gender or political persuasion of god but it does exsist.
i've seen too much that can't be explained thru science.

I'm not that irrelevant...!!!

deedee sed:

ok so its just one big coincedence that we all are here in the first place? first off it was a fluke that the big bang happened was it? then that the earth was formed? then that the situation was compatable with the beginings of life? then that humans overcame all the bad shit they had to to finally control the planet?????

this was just a happy little coincedence is it? christ don't be so fucking simplistic.

Erm yes it was all a coincidence sweetheart...... but considering that the universe has been around for all eternity it's not surprising that this infintessimally small chance of live has actually happened. If you think about it - it's most likely all happened before anyway..... squillions of years ago!

deedee sed:

i believe in god. the cathloic one. however i'm open to being proved wrong on the gender or political persuasion of god but it does exsist.
i've seen too much that can't be explained thru science.

Yes people used to say that they didnt know why the sun rose in the morning and the moon at night...... so they worshipped them as "Gods"..... however now we know different.... science is evolving and pushing back boundaries all the time..... maybe we'll never know everything about the universe but that doesn't mean we should start making up ficticious super-beings who reside in the ether just so we HAVE an explanation... I think it's ok to say "I don't know"!

Took the test:

Secular Humanism 100%
Unitarian Universalism 91%
Jehovahs Witness 0% Ha ha. Will print results for the next time the annoying twats come knocking.

ace_mcfly spouted:


Erm yes it was all a coincidence sweetheart...... but considering that the universe has been around for all eternity it's not surprising that this infintessimally small chance of live has actually happened. If you think about it - it's most likely all happened before anyway..... squillions of years ago!



Yes people used to say that they didnt know why the sun rose in the morning and the moon at night...... so they worshipped them as "Gods"..... however now we know different.... science is evolving and pushing back boundaries all the time..... maybe we'll never know everything about the universe but that doesn't mean we should start making up ficticious super-beings who reside in the ether just so we HAVE an explanation... I think it's ok to say "I don't know"!

i refuse to believe that we are all one fuckin big science experiment. i know that science explains why the sun and the moon act the way they do. i realise that a) evolving and b) pushing back boundries

but are you so lackin in spirituality that you would entertain the notion that nothing beyond wot man can prove exsists?
stuff happenes that science can't explain EVER not stuff like the moon and the stars but honest to god miracles things that will never be explained.

p.s.
hasn't our universe only been around for a few billion yrs anyway?

deedee spouted:


i refuse to believe that we are all one fuckin big science experiment.

Hmm... as a Catholic, isn't that pretty much what you're meant to believe? That the whole purpose of the universe is to sustain sentient life which through it's own moral choices eventually comes to either acclaim or reject its Creator and is either translated to a new level of existence or condemned to the eternal death inherent in its current one?

Personally, if there is a God, I'd go along with Woody Allen's description - "you can't say he's evil, but basically, he's a bit of an underachiever".

Joey Sarajevo spouted:


Hmm... as a Catholic, isn't that pretty much what you're meant to believe? That the whole purpose of the universe is to sustain sentient life which through it's own moral choices eventually comes to either acclaim or reject its Creator and is either translated to a new level of existence or condemned to the eternal death inherent in its current one?

Personally, if there is a God, I'd go along with Woody Allen's description - "you can't say he's evil, but basically, he's a bit of an underachiever".

yes and no. i see your point but i'd prefer not to think of myself as a science experiment it does no good for the ould ego

I can see your point too... But I think it's possible to found a sense of self-worth on human foundations rather than metaphysical ones (though that's not to say I don't necessarily respect other people's religious faith).

Without getting too pretentious, I've always admired Albert Camus's contention in Caligula that the best and worst part about being a human is that we are challenged to act morally in an absurd and non-moral universe.

Plus, I get to have pre-marital sex.

Back of the net!

deedee

you may be intrigued by this website:

http://evolutionoftruth.com/div/fibomyst.htm

read the whole page!

ace_mcfly spouted:
deedee

you may be intrigued by this website:

http://evolutionoftruth.com/div/fibomyst.htm

read the whole page!

read and i got the jist, was intrigued but my maths is shit so understanding is minimal

Apparently I am 100% Liberal Quaker (I am actually christened Methodist, which if I take as Mainline - liberal Protestant, is 4th in line after Universal Unitarianism and Neo-Pagan) In las t place at 16% is Jehovah's Witness, just behind Nontheist.

I think that 'God' for want of a better term, DOES exist and that the concept of God is way beyond the comprehension of mere humans, God could be seen as the universal force of life in all of us, God could be the Creator of the Universe, He (there's my Christian Methodist dogma comiung through!) may even BE the Universe for all any of us could ever know, the concept of God is about as understandable to humanity as the Universe in its entirety is to one person, try and get your head round that, you're head will explode!

There's only one way to live, really, have fun, try to make the world better, we're all going to the same place when it's over, but we won't find out til we get there...

Geoneil said:
the concept of God is about as understandable to humanity as the Universe in its entirety is to one person

And yet you STILL say he exists? Surely you're contradicting yourself mate?

1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2. Theravada Buddhism (92%)
3. Liberal Quakers (87%)
4. Mahayana Buddhism (82%)
5. Secular Humanism (78%)
6. New Age (77%)
7. Neo-Pagan (75%)
8. Taoism (74%)
9. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (69%)
10. New Thought (66%)
11. Orthodox Quaker (64%)
12. Scientology (64%)
13. Jainism (56%)
14. Reform Judaism (56%)
15. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (54%)
16. Nontheist (54%)


I quite like the sound of #2 but when it comes down to it well, nihilism is the way :D

GOD = absent landlord.

[QUOTE]ace_mcfly spouted:
[B]

Erm yes it was all a coincidence sweetheart...... but considering that the universe has been around for all eternity it's not surprising that this infintessimally small chance of live has actually happened. If you think about it - it's most likely all happened before anyway..... squillions of years ago!



Maybe that's deja-vu.
dooweeeeee-oooooo.
I think God is wierd.

God? Who s/he?

Your born, you live, you die, you rot. Fan-fucking-tastic compost material though. Dahlias will never look better, shame I shall never be there to see them.

Also, drinking beer in the pub is better than going to church. When was the last time you saw Baccus in the pews. Cunt was too pissed, and he was also surrounded by nublile (and Rubenesque) ladies. GREAT (although I prefers the less lardy types).

How do you spell Baccus?

Doesn't exist, fairy tale made up by dumbass gullible people who didn't understand the world around them 2000 years ago.

God, yeah ok, religion, no.

I believe there is much about the world that we don't understand and cannot comprehend but to suggest that some monks that lived 2000 years ago figured it all out and it all made sense to them is a bit crazy.
Most religions fail to take into account centuries of astrology and cosmology, evolution and biology, history and archaeology and just about every other -ology that there is.

To think that Einstien had a good understanding of the whole nature of the universe is probably naiive, but to suggest that the monks had it sorted is ludicrous.

what's your point? You sound like you dont have a clue what you're going on about mate.

Today, 2 days after crimbo, the religous tv shows are all ot here, Actually watched the firsrst hour of "The Robe",
but if you never saw God, usually half asleep, then I can see the devil got you,
amen
...nothing wrong with the fallen brother, just his rap

Pardon? I never understand you bubba..... I think you're mad and should be flambed for talking gibberish.... but I'm not God so I can't make that happen.

If God exists, I want a fucking word with him!

Within that statement hides the fundamental undoing of all religion.

Sir, I salute you!

Ace

Squalion spouted:
Doesn't exist, fairy tale made up by dumbass gullible people who didn't understand the world around them 2000 years ago.

Have you never thought that maybe it is for people who hold on to the belief that they will one day be reunited with loved ones they have lost?

And I for one like that belief.......

Ive often thought about this God idea. Every week I seem to come with a different idea. Although generally Im probably more aligned with atheism.
But anyway I think Mark Twain was onto something when he said this:

Frankenstein took some flesh and bones and blood and made a man out of them; the man ran away and fell to raping and robbing and murdering everywhere, and Frankenstein was horrified and in despair, and said, "I made him, without asking his consent, and it makes me responsible for every crime he commits. I am the criminal, he is innocent." ... [That's exactly] the case of God and man... God made man, without man's consent, and made his nature, too; made it vicious instead of angelic, and then said, "Be angelic, or I will ill punish you and destroy you." But no matter, God is responsible for everything man does, all the same; He can't get around that fact. There is only one Criminal, and it is not man.

thats very poetic blaggard but to go beyond that I've got to point out that some of us feel that God doesnt exist anyway - let alone being the "creator of mankind". Thats just silly stuff.

Uno - I empathise with what you are saying and I think that view has a lot of people "believing" in religion merely as a safeguard..... or perhaps another way of putting it is that it frightens people into adhearing to the rules of religion (one of which is most likely donating to the cause).

Anyway I think I've said all I can on this matter. A very interesting debate this one.

I wouldn't say I believe in religion, as i hate the idea of organised religion. Divides more than it unites. I do however, like the thought that when i die, it will not be the end. I like the thought that when i die, i will be reunited with people around me whom i have loved who have also died.

This thought, this concept is my own personal god/religion. I'm not saying this will happen (like organised religions do). I'm saying that i'm hoping this will happen. I'm hoping that this faith will guide me when someone very close to me dies.....as is inevitable at some stage in my life.

Look at how sucky life is- wars, faminie, cruelty, murder etc. i know it's not like that all the time and there are some great things about life but do you really believe that if there is an after life it'll all magically be better? As long as there are human beings there it'll be more of the same.
We are amongst the luckiest, richest people in the world, and not just in monetry terms but in the choices, freedoms and luxuries we have available to us- maybe this is the best that we're gonna get- it's a damn sight more than most people have.
I'm not saying that there is nothing after this and that we can't be reunited with those we've lost, but I think we're gonna be in for a disappointment if we expect to go onto some sort of perfect world.

Lil' al spouted:
Look at how sucky life is- wars, faminie, cruelty, murder etc.

I always remember one of my teachers in school referring to these as "Natural Population Checks", a way for the natural world to make sure human beings don't over step their boundaries.

Depends on whether you believe in Nature as an entity, a part of God or what you see around you.

smurfsey spouted:


I always remember one of my teachers in school referring to these as "Natural Population Checks", a way for the natural world to make sure human beings don't over step their boundaries.

Depends on whether you believe in Nature as an entity, a part of God or what you see around you.

*Ahem*

Sorry, managed to cut myself off there somehow.

Anyway, with reference to the above quotation, being 'natural' doesn't make something morally justified or necessary. If believing in 'God as Nature' means going along with a - however modified - belief that suffering misfortune is somehow the result of divine will, then belief in 'God as Nature' means being an effing psycho.

On the other hand, if the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God just watches these things happen and acts as some kind of 'impartial observer' then said God is one morally suspect (or at best incompetent) individual.

Not forgetting that your teacher was (excepting - some - famines) talking out of their arse.

Joey Sarajevo spouted:
Anyway, with reference to the above quotation, being 'natural' doesn't make something morally justified or necessary. If believing in 'God as Nature' means going along with a - however modified - belief that suffering misfortune is somehow the result of divine will, then belief in 'God as Nature' means being an effing psycho.

I didn't say this was my belief in God (which is on page 3), I was just mentioning an opinion of an old teacher. Also there are a subset of Christian's who do believe that suffering misfortune is the will of God, it was more common during the 1700-1800's but there are still the odd person floating around who does believe that. Whether they're are psycho's or not I suppose depends on how far they take it and on whether they impose it on others.

Joey Sarajevo spouted:
On the other hand, if the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God just watches these things happen and acts as some kind of 'impartial observer' then said God is one morally suspect (or at best incompetent) individual.

"God is an absentee landlord"
Al Pacino, The Devil's Advocate

Some people take great strength from their belief in God and more power to them. I have every respect for their beliefs, I think however that you will struggle to find a strong believer in whatever religion who will show me the same respect for mine (athiest.) And I think that is even detectable from the posts in this thread.

Remember religious types, there is a danger that you will go through your life waiting for the great reward at the end and let the bit in between pass you by... and if I am wrong and you are right when you do finally get in through the big gates... Cliff fucking Richard (New Balls Please) is gonna be in there waiting for you!!

smurfsey spouted:


I didn't say this was my belief in God (which is on page 3), I was just mentioning an opinion of an old teacher.

Apologies - I didn't mean to imply that YOU were a psycho, should've made that clear. It's just that attempts to explain mass suffering in terms of people getting 'what they deserve' (even on a cosmic scale) really piss me off.

As for how far people impose their beliefs on others: the trouble with religious people is often that their beliefs REQUIRE them to do so as a kind of moral duty. The more sincere people are in their religion, the more this is the case. My Mum, for example, is notionally a Catholic and restricted the imposition to her children - but Mormons/Jehovah's Witnesses/Born-Agains and the like are often to be found trying to convince people of the 'truth' of their beliefs.

Trouble is, sects like this are usually the most vocal when it comes to holding the opinions we've been criticising...

your asked to believe in something great that is not there, this may seem hard to do, but lets face it if you did not know about space and someone explained it to you, would you believe it? makes you wonder if there is a God, I think there is.

God has kept me sober for more than 2 years. Fuck yer I believen in a higher power than ourselves. Religion I dont like, but I believe there is a God.

Dont know much about any god. Been baptized, went to church and sunday school and prayed a lot when i was young. Hasn't made a shit of difference. I see so much suffering in this world that if there a god he should be fucking held accountable. What a twisted, evil, fucking sadist. I'd like to have two minutes with him..

She's a bit busy Van Basten to have two minutes with you.

I dont belive in God, but universal life forces, in a Star Warsy kinda way. Derren Brown is our Jedi Knight if you will. Not happy with the number of people who use religion as a means to justify murder.

I believe in God, the Prophets and the Scriptures. I don't think we are here by accident or by some freak 'natural' occurence. The whole universe acts in accordance with certain laws which are enforced, I believe, by God.

So which God do you believe in?

Erm, I believe there'es only one. Yes, that's the one ;)

zed247 spouted:
Erm, I believe there'es only one.

Nah, that's Highlander.

So, which one do you reckon it is then - God, Jesus (God 2 - this time it's personal), Allah, Brahma, Ndjambi Karunga, Cghene, Frank McAvennie, etc?

And do you have to wear special trousers?

I hereby endorse God (TM).

No seriously, I'm a Christian, I'm a Protestant, but as to the rest of it I find it's all a bit unclear. My faith moves slowly like molasses, or should that be like a glacier

see now i dont believe in god.

Because the bible says we aint animals, and that the world was created for our convenience. we arnt vegetable or mineral.

I see religion as a very important part of history, where we had no other explanation for our being here, but i think that science now has revealed enough about us and the world to show us that we came from apes.

98% of our dna is the same people..... just thought id toss that into the ring.

Thread done before, so merged into a super godfest thread :D

Taya

So what does science say that the meaning of life is?

(We derive from apes? Speak for yourself :D )

the evoloution argument doesn't even apply, it is not an 'unchristian' theory anymore than saying that the earth moves round the sun!

and denying it is just plain stupid! monumentally stubborn!

(and apart form the apes we share about 78% of our DNA with dandeleions!)

Yes, there is scientific proof of SIMILARITIES between different species, but there is no proof that man EVOLVED from apes. Please enlighten me if I am wrong.

zed247, why would life have to have a meaning.

Life just is.

harry

The answer is in your own question. Why?

'Why' determines reason, therefore there must be a purpose for our existence. Because without purpose, we would not exist ;)

It is too complex to be an accident.

zed247 spouted:
It is too complex to be an accident.

Or is it too complex to have been planned by any entity?

We are not just talking simply about complexity, but how it is all able to come together. The fact that the universe is running 'perfectly' means it must have been designed in a certain way. I find it hard to believe that everything exists in harmony (scientifically) just by coincidence. Work it out..... What are the odds?

And also, why is it possible for just 'natural' things to have been created by chance? Why aren't there, by chance, any machines that just assemble themselves together and just 'come' into being?

zed247 spouted:
Why aren't there, by chance, any machines that just assemble themselves together and just 'come' into being?
According to some theories there are, and you and I are an example of them.

Hmmm.....are we Natural?

Which theories do you speak off?

Erm... the theory of evolution. (I think you might have missed my point)

Ok then, explain...

Okay, the cells that compose your body are by definition complex organic machines, and all those cells have their origins in one cell, an egg in your mothers womb. Right?

So you, like all life, by definition are composed of "machines that just assemble themselves together". It is the complexity of all those machines working together that make the being, you.

Yes, I understand that but you say that all this is by chance? How did all the cells organise themselves so elegantly to form life?

Anyway, I said why hasn't anything UNATURAL ever come together, say like a television or a radio?

No one says they did at first, thats the basic premise of natural selection and the theory of evolution. And evolution has been 'observed', AFAIK divine creation hasn't.

observed?

Yes, tested, observed, been seen to work both in nature and in the lab.

Scientists don't just believe things, they test them! A scientist didn't one day say:
Scientist 1:"I have this new hypothesis, its called evolution",
Scientist 2:"yeah, that sounds reasonable, I'll buy that!"

3rd: Where's your proof, prof? How did you carry out your study to come to that conclusion? Did you really see an ape turn into a man? Ok, show me.

as opposed to the irrefutable proof of creation........

so all you god nuts >

if your wife comes home and tells you she is pregnant
but the kids not your what would you say ?

dumb joseph really fell for it when mary told him she hadnt
been shagging about behind his back ..

ooo nooo joe, an angel came out of the sky and made me
pregnant,,,"honest"

well at least it saved mary from being stoned to death...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

i think the world would have been a far better place
if we had never had gods and religions..
all those wars and all that slaughter that would have been
avoided..all that hatred and killing...

to me thats all that religion and gods ever gave humanity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

my religion is the best:

I worship myself daily.

So do a lot of others ;)

zed247 spouted:
So do a lot of others ;)
Thanks zed!
You are a god.

Blasphemy! Unforgivable! Punishable by stboning to death!

zed247 spouted:
Blasphemy! Unforgivable! Punishable by boning to death!
???

zed247 spouted:
3rd: Where's your proof, prof? How did you carry out your study to come to that conclusion? Did you really see an ape turn into a man? Ok, show me.
Did you see God make Adam?

No

So your evidence in favour of creationism is?

Hey man, MY evidence is MY belief...and faith. You're the one that claimed to have scientific evidence to back YOUR claim so, like, present it.

Belief and faith are NOT evidence.

Why does the Bible say the world is only six thousand years old? The Chinese have been around for much longer than that. Why doesn't the Bible mention them? Or the peoples of Australia? Or the Americas?

If the world is six thousand years old why are there fossils stored in rock strata which are millions of years old?

If god created all creatures in one day, why are there different creatures in different levels of strata (i.e. through different ages), if God created them all in one day wouldn't they all be the same?

Why does the complexity of those creatures get greater the higher up in the strata you look (i.e. the older they are the simpler they are)?

What is the purpose of DNA? If creatures aren't evolving then why do mutations occur? Why are there fossil records of millions of organisms which have become exinct, LONG before man came into existence. What happened to the dinosaurs?

Why does the Bible say that earth is the center of the universe?

They are evidence for me. I didn't say that you MUST share the same belief.

However, you claimed to have scientific evidence which means you have the 'proven' answer, yet you ask random rhetoric questions about the Bible. Please enlighten me with the FACTS.

They weren't rhetorical questions, I really want you to look for the answers to those questions. Does the bible say what happened to the dinosaurs? Do you deny that they even existed?

Evolution isn't 'proven', but evidence strongly suggests it, or some similar mechanism.

There is no evidence for creationism whatsoever. There is no evidence that all life just 'popped' into existence on one day, in fact the evidence suggests that thats exactly what didn't happen.

Well since I don't really believe in the Bible, I'll leave the answer hunting to you :)

You give the impression that science and religion cannot mix. How long was a day a million years ago? Please, you keep mentioning all this evidence you have gathered up but you continue to shield it....give us something at least.

Sure, here ya go. Knock yourself out bubba I'm going to bed.
What is Evolution? (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html)
Introduction to Evolutionary Biology (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html)
The Scientific Case for Common Descent (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/)

This is an endless debate. There are gaping holes in the theory of evolution so it cannot be regarded as fact. Neither can religion. They are both beliefs, but science is regarded as being more objective with more reliable results. If you drop something it will land on the floor time and time again = gravity! It is also quite uncool to be religious these days anyway (Ned Flanders) - you are perceived as being a lemming and a bit of a sad fuck, so it is easier to just dismiss it in most cases. What also doesn't help is that activities considered as "sins" are the most enjoyable-drinking gambling, promiscuity, intoxicants, adultery (don’t you just love it all ;) )
Science moves from one paradigm to another, one statement is regarded as fact until a new more viable theory is developed-there are sometimes more contradictions within science itself than religion. Big bang or not? The universe is expanding- but into what? ...hmmm.

Darwin postulated that organisms evolve from simplicity to complexity yet the invention of the electron microscope disproved this; if you take a look at the complex metabolic processes involved in the maintenance of the machinery of a single cell in any living organism, it is fascinating and in no way "simple" relative to the whole organism.
Science may be more man-made anyway, as it obviously created by humans, whereas religion claims to be divine, which cannot really be disproved, how do you prove God doesn't exist?
The bible, with all due respect, is not an authority on religion- it is one of many and has many variants-it has been re written time and time again. In fact many customs and traditions performed by believers of any faith are not dictated by their original corresponding scriptures but are even more man-made then the faith itself may appear to be, so picking faults with the bible is not an effective way to disprove the existence of God-they are two separate debates.

I think it is possible to believe in God/ a creator or whatever name you wish to give a supreme being, without actually following a specific faith -In fact, the more I study in the field of science, the more I believe that this cannot all be due to chance. Some people are equally happy not believing in God and just going about their daily life which they believe will eventually come to an end just like that with no repercussions or accountablity. Good luck to you- Although I could never do this without just wondering once in a while at least, I respect those who do, and believe that there is NO COMPULSION in having to follow a particular faith as long as you do no harm to anyone-take heed G.W. Bush you murdering bastard-may God’s wrath be upon you, you barrel of dogshit, but I digress.

With regards to religion/faith being there to control the masses, well of course that’s what it is there for. You need social order and religion is one way of establishing this, be it delivered by actual prophets or men with delusions of grandeur. Why is it wrong to kill? Why do people have a conscience? Everyone follows some kind of belief anyway, be it christianity, atheism, or even bloody walt disney/gap/ macdonaldism.
And now I can’t be bothered to write anymore, because I’m not sure I’m making sense anyway. It’s late and I need to smoke but the cigarettes are downstairs and I don’t know the code for the alarm as I am at my sisters house so goodnight. And I need the loo.

harry007jnr spouted:
Sure, here ya go. Knock yourself out bubba I'm going to bed.
What is Evolution? (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html)
Introduction to Evolutionary Biology (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html)
The Scientific Case for Common Descent (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/)

Your 'evidence' only shows your blind faith in Darwinism. I bet you haven't even read your own links :(

Have you read them?

I still fail to see why the theory of evoloition is so abbhorrent to some people. Far from making a mokery of peoples faith should it not restore it somewhat? such a wonderful and complex mechanism for the creation and development of life should be embraced by the faithful as 'part of the proof' of the existance of god surely?

The ststements that shock me most are the outraged cries of 'I am NOT AN APE' always said in an angry and hurt tone.

Isn't Pride one of the seven deadly sins?

The hypocrosy stinks.

zed247 spouted:
I bet .....

there's your 'faith'

I haven't read the links because it is waaay too much info to seive through. I would prefer to have a discussion than a 'battle of links'. I won't bother posting links that dispute Darwin's theory for the same reasons.

I must say that I believed in the theory of evolution when I first looked at THAT wall chart at school showing the stages from chimp to man. What has changed? Nothing really...just the lack off evidence to support the claim. The first question that came to mind was 'Why are there still apes, and why haven't ALL apes evolved?'

Reasons. Both evolution and creation are based on belief. One can understand the REASON why a 'creationist' would believe that God created man (because God 'controls' everything etc). I cannot see the reason why an evolutionist believes that we are here 'by chance' or even 'survival of the fittest' (This bit of Darwinism has been used by Nazi/ Fascists - ethnic cleansing - sub-human arguments Hitler Stalin blah blah etc etc....but NO!, I'm not saying evolutionists are necessarily Nazis or Fascists).

One of deciding factors is the belief in a soul. Do evolutionists believe in the existence of a soul? If so, I would like to know where it comes from and what it's made of :)

zed247 spouted:
I must say that I believed in the theory of evolution when I first looked at THAT wall chart at school showing the stages from chimp to man. What has changed? Nothing really...just the lack off evidence to support the claim. The first question that came to mind was 'Why are there still apes, and why haven't ALL apes evolved?'

Part of the answer is that it was never suggested that man evolved from apes, but merely that we had a common ancestor. The standard wall chart you refer to is based on a myth.

Good post, but your understanding of 'evoloutionary theory' is wrong. Evoloutionists(!) no more " believe that we are here 'by chance' or even 'survival of the fittest' " than you do. It is a hugley complex relationship between species and environment and cannot be simplified into the two tired old phrases that were coined in an effort to gainsay darwin when he presented his findings to the royal institution.

As for the poster that proved to you that evolution was a bag of pants, "showing the stages from chimp to man" I can guarantee you there was no chimp on that poster!

We are not decended from chimps! no one EVER said we were!!

and as to 'Why are there still apes, and why haven't ALL apes evolved?'

well they have, everything has evolved, just in some evoloutionary niche it has become OK to sit around on an ugly strange flappy bottom hooting in the trees and picking your nose all day! (must say i am a bit jealous) just as in other environments the crocodile is pretty much a perfect design so why change it?

As for 'the soul' that is a completley unrelated argument, there is room for the belief in a soul along with evoloution. Perhaps you should ask a brain surgeon the same question?

Ok, I may have the wrong end of the stick when it comes to understanding the evolution theory (Is there only one theory?). The question comes down to How did the first person arrive here?. I don't have an answer because it is beyond my understanding. I have no shame in admitting that. It may very well have been a process of cells multyplying in the right environment etc....Like we 'evolve' from an embryo to a foetus to a baby etc etc. The difference between 'growing' and 'evolving' needs to be distinguished. I believe humans have always existed in their current form and not transformed from one species (like an ape or a fish). The common 'ancestor' is obviously the creator, if everything comes from one. If everything comes from nothing, does nothing contain everything?

I think the soul is totally relevant to the topic. It is like thoughts, and how thoughts are perceived scientifically. Are thoughts made of matter? If not, something must have happened during the evolutionary cycle to allow a 'non entity' to interact with and influence the body.

zed247 spouted:
Your 'evidence' only shows your blind faith in Darwinism. I bet you haven't even read your own links :(
I have read my own links. You however haven't.

zed247 spouted:
I haven't read the links because it is waaay too much info to seive through.
And you accuse me of blind faith?

zed247 spouted:
I won't bother posting links that dispute Darwin's theory for the same reasons.
The links I gave have nothing to do with Darwin, or Darwinism. They simply present a scientific case for a common ancestor for all species. I'd be happy for you to post links disputing this case, because up to now you have given no compelling reason for me to accept your account other than "I believe it therefore it must be true".

Yes, I am accusing you of having blind faith ;)

So we agree that there is a common ancestor which I would classify as The Creator, i.e. God. Who do YOU think is the common 'ancestor'?

Sod this, anyone fancy a pint?

zed247 spouted:
So we agree that there is a common ancestor which I would classify as The Creator, i.e. God.
Are you saying that you believe God is your ancestor, and not your creator? What faith are you, as that is clearly blasphemous in an awful lot of em.

Ancestor/ Creator = same difference.

Don't divert from my question. Who or what is your ultimate ancestor/creator?

You're clearly very confused. Ancestor does not equal creator, especially not in the context that you are using.

*sigh*

I know the two are different. The point is, where do we come from....how was our common ultimate ancestor created? I say by God. Therefore, you can go one step back before the creation of the ancestor, i.e to God. I already said that I would change 'ancestor' to 'Creator', ESPECIALLY in the context we are talking. If you want it put simply, then:

Ancestor = Adam
Creator = God

Now, what you are trying to ask is who is Adam's ancestor. Creation itself is beyond my understanding. To me, it miraculous. Now, for the third time, Who is you ancestor / creator?

zed247 spouted:
So we agree that there is a common ancestor which I would classify as The Creator, i.e. God. Who do YOU think is the common 'ancestor'?

I think you're confusing two things. The "common ancestor" for mankind and apes is generally taken to be a shrew-like creature that lived several million years ago. It has nothing whatsoever to do with any "Creator".

Why should I answer your question when you have consistantly avoided answering mine?

Do you think God will punish you for questioning the Bible, or the Qu'ran? If you believe in God, you believe he gave us free will, use it.

It's okay to say 'I don't know'. There's no shame in being honest. I don't think I will be punished for questioning the said books.

You're right, I've never said whether I believe God exists or not, because I don't know, NO ONE DOES! It is beyond human capability and understanding at this time, perhaps for all time, perhaps not. Who knows.

And the universe is a VERY big place, before you state a book, written by a man ~1500 years ago as fact, why not try to explore it a little eh?

The only thing that is certain about the existance/non-existance of God is that when any two people debate it the argument ALWAYS swings to evoloution.

Which has fuck all to do with it!

Some people (naming no names) insist on trying and succeeding in derailing this thread. If you do not keep on topic, the thread will be closed. Thank you.

Nothing can exist without a creator. That is undisputable.

Is it?

Just because we cannot at this moment in time conceive of it, does not make it indisputable. At one time we couldn't conceive of electric lighting, that didn't make it impossible.

Take your blinkers off and stop making absolute statements which you cannot hope to justify. If you want to say that you beleive it, then go ahead, but please don't enforce your faith on everyone else.

The sheer number of different faiths in the world, both past and present, and the fact that we are here discussing it now shows that it is disputable.

Sorry, but I think both of you made unproductive comments. Don't just SAY it is disputable. Dispute it. Please.

Nothing can exist without a creator. Go on, refute that statement.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Argumentum ad ignorantiam means "argument from ignorance." The fallacy occurs when it's argued that something must be true, simply because it hasn't been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that something must be false because it hasn't been proved true.

Shifting the burden of proof
The burden of proof is always on the person asserting something. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

Oh, another (cheap) diversion tactic, using copy paste of all things :D

Not a diversionary tactic, I'm just lazy, so let me reiterate.

You have made the assertion "Nothing can exist without a creator", so it is up to you to prove that assertion.

Ok, look around you and name me something that was NOT created by a creator. I know this is shifting it back to you, but I made the statement becasue that is what I believe to be scientifically true. You are disputing the statement (or SAY you are) so tell me what is wrong with the statement. For example, How would I be able to PROVE to you that this writing is BLACK on WHITE, if you didn't agree?

Just because you believe it to be 'scientifically(?) true', doesn't make it so. To be scientifically proven you have to present evidence. Like I said the burden of proof is on you.

And I have already stated that the existance of God is uncertain because neither side of the argument can present any proof.

But THAT IS the proof. That nothing can exist without a creator. Forget the debate about the existance of God for a second and concentrate on the STATEMENT. Do you agree or disagree with it?

I'll kindly (and patiently) point you back to my post about Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Agree or disagree, that is the question. Let's not go off topic here, you pedant.

How can I agree or disagree with your argument when you haven't presented any evidence?

:gar:

God loves both of you, even if you don't believe in him ;)

I think Zed is pointing out that we are clearly here, and that is enough evidence to suggest that we were created, hence there is some force behind this creation, be it divine or scientific.
Perhaps once we understand what put the events of the big bang and the creation of the universe together, we'll have a unified vision of God, one that some will believe is a divine and spiritual vision and others will believe it is a system of processes, not evangelical, but scientific, but both will agree, it is a vision of the creator and therefore God.

zed247, harry007jnr - could you please keep your petty squabbles to a more personal setting. Last chance before god intervenes and closes the thread.

Huh? Warning noted, but I thought we'd both given up anyway (stalemate).

*shrugs*

God exists.

zed, you really are contradicting yourself, mate. If everything has a creator as you say, well then, who created God?
Even religious people believe that God is eternal and was not created from anything, which is why God is God. Believers do not question this, but accept it. Also how can a creator be the common ancestor. Ancestors do not "create" what they eventually evolve into, it is a gradual and unintentional process, whereas a creator creates. That is his job.

ashez, no contradiction, just a mix up in terminology which I cleared up on the last page.

People that don't believe in God usually do not form that opinion 'honestly'. Could be that some have had religion forced upon them or the concept is difficult for then to grasp, or they think it's uncool. Some people just argue against it because that's what they do.

Yes, but that is a bit patronising dont you think? Some people may have their own reasons why they do not believe in God. Does not make their opinion less valid than yours or mine.

The reasons you have given people for not believing in God can equally be applied to those who do believe in God.

I am a muslim, although I don't really practice it, I still believe in the fundamental priniciples. But this does not mean that I don't understand or hold regard for other peoples beliefs or non beliefs.

I never said that I didn't 'believe' in God, I'm just arguing that God's existance is impossible to prove.

In that regard I think I'm being much more honest than you are zed247.

BTW this is my last post in this thread, as we're both starting to repeat ourselves and its getting boring.

Of course people have their own reasons why they do not believe in God and maybe it was wrong of me to just highlight a few of these. I defend anyone's right to have an opinion, and for it to be challenged.

And harry, please don't assume my last post was directed at you.

I think that with the vast range of gods to choose from eg. Buddha, Yahweh, Allah, ET, Ra, Jehovah, GOD, Zeus, etc., i cant really be sure that im able to pick the right one. I would hate to find out at my death that i devoted my life to the wrong deity.

Pick Zeus, he´s the father of all Gods and can really screw you up if you forget it. Look what happend to Amphetrion!

But surely Ra (Re) comes before them all.
He's the Sun God worshipped by the ancient Egyptians and predates all the others.

i'll stick to the more earthly Isis and Osiris (not forgetting their son, Horus)

Better include Sett to complete the story then....

And Khepri! The cute little beetle.......

Oops, I just stood on him, am I in trouble now ??

Hinduism was the first religion.

Oh really? do illuminate us

*Shines torch on Gentreau*

Look it up.

Overview:
Hinduism differs from Christianity and other Western religions in that it does not have a single founder, a specific theological system, a single system of morality, or a central religious organization. It consists of "thousands of different religious groups that have evolved in India since 1500 BCE."


Which means it post-dates the civilisation of Sumer which certainly had an organised religion, which would today be seen as a form of pagan sun-worship.

That's not to mention the possible earlier civilisations and their religions which probably existed up to 30,000 years ago.

The origins of Hinduism can be traced to the Indus Valley civilization sometime between 4000 and 2500 BCE. Though believed by many to be a polytheistic religion, the basis of Hinduism is the belief in the unity of everything.
It could be argued that the worlds first religion was agnosticism since we are all born believing nothing.

harry007jnr spouted:
It could be argued that the worlds first religion was agnosticism since we are all born believing nothing.

That could depend if you believe if Adam and Eve were the first, and they apparantly had contact with God, so....

well i aint read most of this and dont intend to.

my opinion is there is no god and anyone who thinks a supreme being made us has either taken too many drugs or needs to take some more.

Well if there is someone who made me he or she aint that supreme cos they didnt build my knees to last hehe:)

I dont believe in god, if I was given proof then I would believe.
But even if his/her existence was proven I wouldnt live my life any differently.......im not scared of god punishing me for any sins that he/she thinks ive comitted cos im more than satisfied that ive been a good person, and I wouldnt change a single thing about the way I live my life.

Even if he/she/it said "I am your creator. You are not doing whjat I created you to do. you are useless to me. If you don't start being useful, I'll cut ya."? You wouldn't think that perhaps there was something wrong then?

(This is exactly what my boss says to me evey morning)

Yeh id think jees im going to hell........but I still wouldnt change a thing, i'd just accept that im going down and then live it up for the rest of my days!!

Fair play to you. Can't fault you there.

If someone identified themselves as god and told me that everything I knew was wrong, I'd most likely tell them to fuck off. Which is sad, I know...

It's very difficult to be an athiest in America.

Apparently you have freedom of religion, but you certainly do not have freedom from religion.

However I would like to make a couple of points.
1) If the bible is the word of god, why are there so many versions of the bible?

2) Why does everyone presume that God is a twat? If you do this, you go to hell, if you do that you go to hell, if you don't tythe enough you go to hell, if you don't believe you go to hell. God comes across as a bit of a vindictive twat if you ask me.

manc1976 spouted:It's very difficult to be an athiest in America.

Apparently you have freedom of religion, but you certainly do not have freedom from religion.


It's not. you just don't believe in god. I would imagine that it woulod b e very difficult not to be an atheist if you don't believe in god. impossible, in fact (assuming a dualist logical system, anyway)


However I would like to make a couple of points.
1) If the bible is the word of god, why are there so many versions of the bible?


God (man?) made man (god?) in his own image. man is schizophrenic and of multiple personalities. It would be logical to expect god to be similarly blessed


2) Why does everyone presume that God is a twat? If you do this, you go to hell, if you do that you go to hell, if you don't tythe enough you go to hell, if you don't believe you go to hell. God comes across as a bit of a vindictive twat if you ask me.

See above.

Oolon Kaluphid spouted:
"Well that just about wraps it up for God then"

Noooo!!! please don't close this thread! ;)

manc1976 spouted:
[However I would like to make a couple of points.
1) If the bible is the word of god, why are there so many versions of the bible?

2) Why does everyone presume that God is a twat? If you do this, you go to hell, if you do that you go to hell, if you don't tythe enough you go to hell, if you don't believe you go to hell. God comes across as a bit of a vindictive twat if you ask me. [/B]

As the owner of about 7 or 8 different versions of the Bible I can assure you they all say the same thing.
The King James version was translated around 1600 odd and was in the English of the day. These days people don't talk like William Shakespeare so the Bible has been made more readable. Example: It's like the King James would have said 'On the mat doth sat the cat.' The New International would have said 'The cat sat on the mat'. Same meaning but in modern language. (I do think there are too many modern translation around though.)

The only thing you go to Hell for is not accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour. God gives you what amounts to a 'Get out of jail free' and you throw it back in his face. And that makes HIM vindictive?

And how exactly do you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour? Is this a simple go to church every sunday thing, or must it become your life? I'm sorry, but religion confuses me. Probably because I see it as the biggest cause of division, rather than it's supposed intention of uniting..

Contrary to popular belief, religion is NOT the biggest cause of dividing people. It is ignorance.

Well thats fair enough if you have some sort of statement to back that up with. Care to elaborate?

Religion itself is harmless. The problem occurs when people (like football fans) are ignorant of the beliefs of others, and think their own belief should be adopted by everyone else. There is nothing wrong with that if it's done properly through debate and discussion, but we all know how passionate people can be when it's something close to their heart.

Actually, the issue is similar to sport. Sport can be both uniting (as in team work) and dividing (opposing other teams).

unordinarychild spouted:
And how exactly do you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour? Is this a simple go to church every sunday thing, or must it become your life? I'm sorry, but religion confuses me. Probably because I see it as the biggest cause of division, rather than it's supposed intention of uniting..

Well the Bible says that believing comes from hearing the message. So yes, going to church and reading the Bible would be a good place to start.
Funny thing about the Bible. Like most (at the time)non-believers I thought I had a pretty good idea what it was about. When I finally picked it up and read it I was amazed. I was forced to get rid of every single one of my pre-conceived ideas. (The first one to go was the notion that 'Original Sin' had anything to do with sex. That was never an issue.)
Zed is right. Ignorance is the biggest cause of dividing people. In my former church anyone who was into metal was ostracized. The crap people used to sprout about the evils of this music made it pretty clear that they had obviously never listened to it. Same with Christianity. The biggest critic are the ones who know the LEAST about it.

I have actually read the bible. Not as a source of reference (I am not religious), but as a book, like you would read a novel. I did actually enjoy it..

Just because you have had bad experience with ignorance doesn't mean that it doesn't work for anyone. I would argue that true ignorance prevents more conflict than it causes. Someone entirely ignorant of the existence of people of a different creed or colour cannot possibly be intolerant of it. Someone who is ignorant of the advantages of others cannot covet them.

It is absence of ignornce, not its presence, that causes strife.

You were destroying a perfect ignorance by introducing those people to something they couldn't pssibly understand. it is you who are responsible for the conflict that resulted.

And anyway, people should be intolerant of metal. it sucks donkey balls

unordinarychild spouted:
I have actually read the bible. Not as a source of reference (I am not religious), but as a book, like you would read a novel. I did actually enjoy it..

And God saw that it was good :D

Ignorance can be bliss, sure, but if one is exposed to a new concept, it is up to the individual to decide if they want to learn about it or ignore it. Both options are fine. The conflict usually begins when one THINKS he KNOWS.

'True ignorance' is almost impossible to practice in our society. One would have to shut themselves away, totally.

And on that subject, Zed, did you get my last PM? After I sent it I discovered most of the site was down with data-base problems. Don't know whether that would have affected PMs.
(I'm not complaining that you haven't answered it. I take long enough to answer yours.)

Unordinary: Good for you. You will be blessed.
Dazzla: So if a little knowledge is a dangerous thing a lot of knowledge is even worse?

I put God firmly alongside all the other paranormal things some people find it necessary to believe in.

As Mark Twain wrote : "You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say that WE are the ones that need help?"

Ratcatcher spouted:
[As Mark Twain wrote : "You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say that WE are the ones that need help?" [/B]

And you believe that NOTHING exploded and made EVERYTHING - even though it goes against the proven laws of thermodynamics and genetics.
As any breeder should be able to tell you, nothing can exist in the 'daughter' population that is not present in the 'parent' population. Genetic information can only be lost, not gained and 99% of mutations are harmful and are not passed on.
All Darwin ever proved was Natural Selection. His leap of faith from there into Evolution is incredible. Microbe to man; fish to philosopher.
Not one true transitional fossil has ever been found and EVERY apeman so far has been found to be fraudulent. Remember Nebraska Man? All they had for him was one tooth and yet the experts created him and his wife and kids from it. And then it was discovered that the tooth was really from a pig. Oh dear!

http://img36.photobucket.com/albums/v108/hannahkaye/wow2.jpg

Did I mention evolution? I just said that I went along with Mark Twain in not believing in a fairy tale written thousands of years ago when people were a lot more credulous than they are today, thinking about your response maybe they still are.

However, as you brought up Nebraska man. It does say something about science and its self regulating mechanism. The tooth you refer to was discovered in 1922. For six years some scientists thought it was from an ape like creature, but in 1928 it was admitted in the magazine Science that it was not humanoid but from a pig like creature. Since then it's been used by creationists to attack evolution. My biology teacher brought it up in class as an example of how science works over thirty years ago.

Sorry Ratcatcher. I know you didn't mention Evolution. You were saying why Bible Believers were fucked in the head and I was saying why Evolutionists were. These are usually the two main oppsoing world views. (Apologies to any New Agers. Please feel free to join in.)

I didn't say that Science was STILL using Nebraska Man as proof of Evolution so what's your point?
(I have no doubt that Science no longer uses any of the other ape men, or the recapitulation theory, or vestigial organs as proof of evolution either)

I notice you didn't respond to my remarks about genetics. Hasn't Grigor Mendel been discredited yet then? He MUST have been if what I said shows you that people are still credulous so enlighten me as to the latest findings.

I am not a biologist so I can't speak for the cutting edge of evolutionary theory. However, I understood that Gregor Mendel's findings provided the evidence of the basic method whereby evolution exists, that is by showing genes existed.

Just for interest, what do you believe in? Was the earth fully formed 6000 years ago as was once promoted by Christianity?

Hope I can explain this adequately. I know what I mean can't always convey it to others. Mendel formed his Laws of Inheritance by crossing red sweet pea plants with white ones. The red being the dominate colour, the offspring were all red. However when he crossed the offspring with one another 1 in 4 were white. His Law is taught at school as Punnet Squares.
I know that with animal breeding genetic information can only be lost, not gained. In fact you could call it 'Devolution'. When you specialise a breed, eg poodle, you deplete the gene pool and increase the chance of harmful mutations. You'd agree that pure bred animals are prone to all sorts of health problems that mongrels don't have.
Yes, I DO believe in a young earth. I've looked at the various dating methods and am aware that different laboratories have turned up different dates, often many millions of years apart. Usually the ACCEPTED date is the one that comes closest to the 'popular theory of the day'. Can't possibly go into it all here, but I know that rock deposits from recent volcanoes (Mt St Helens for example) have been tested and have yielded ridiculously inaccurate dates.
I used to be an avid evolutionist, by the way, and I used to consider organisations like 'Answers In Genesis' to be akin to the 'Flat Earth Society'. After I decided to look into it with an open mind I found that I found I could no longer sustain my old cherished views.

Mariska spouted:
Yes, I DO believe in a young earth.

Professor Stephen Hawking spouted:
Our solar system was formed about four and a half billion years ago, or about ten billion years after the Big Bang, from gas contaminated with the remains of earlier stars. The Earth was formed largely out of the heavier elements, including carbon and oxygen.

http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/lindex.html

'Life in the Universe'

......and I beleive in a young Joan Collins.

Well, for all of our studies, theories and postultation this huge/tiny universe would be a half empty disco without some sort of Godhead wouldn´t it? I myself am facinated by the manifold options of energy that form our universe - whatever it called, hallowed be it.

joba spouted:

.....and I beleive in a young Joan Collins.

Well she is young compared with some people. Ha Ha

I seem to recall the Old Earth theory going something like: 'If evolution was true it would take 4.5 billion years for man to evolve. Man is here therefore the world must be 4.5 billion years old.

Like the God that I worship I am no respecter of persons. Hawking is a fallen human being like the rest of us and for all his scholarship, at the end of the day, really has no more idea of how the world came to be than my two year old nephew does. It CANNOT be proven scientifically so it's really just one THEORY versus another.
And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how genetic information can be spontaneously gained.

i've spent a lifetime hearing people tell me that they feel badly for me because i don't have a god, don't want a god etc. (on top of the whole vegetarian and socialist thing, i've had to deal with a lot of unwanted pity). so no, i don't believe it. but if it gets you through, that's fine. I kind of feel that if you want to be religious, just be religious. stop telling everyone about it (that's not directed at anyone in particular)

Vegas, normally I agree with you but did you notice the title of this thread? If it was titles Kimi Raikkonen I am sure that none of us would even be thinking of our religious affiliations.
I don't feel soory for you for not having a god. (Not yet at least. I didn't want one either, then suddenly in 1991 he was there. He really didn't give me a lot of choice either, but that's another extremely long story.

yeah..talking 'bout me people?
now,as you can see,There is a God!..
that's me.thanks for your support.
anyway,you may think a proper God like me wouldn't interfere with this earthly topic,but as i'm the creator of Kimi Raikkonen,i can say he's really good.i know.i made him.

Phria The God spouted:
anyway,you may think a proper God like me wouldn't interfere with this earthly topic,but as i'm the creator of Kimi Raikkonen,i can say he's really good.i know.i made him.

Damnit, Phria! Just when I thought NOTHING could ever shake my faith.
But then again if you are to blame for Kimi Raikkonen that lets the God I worship off the hook doesn't it?

Love your humour, dude!

Mariska spouted:
Hawking is a fallen human being like the rest of us and for all his scholarship, at the end of the day, really has no more idea of how the world came to be than my two year old nephew does.

Yeah, but you don't mind quoting Hawking when it suits your argument do you?

Mariska spouted:
And you believe that NOTHING exploded and made EVERYTHING

That's Big Bang theory which he, along with Penrose, had rather a large hand in.

joba spouted:

Yeah, but you don't mind quoting Hawking when it suits your argument do you?
That's Big Bang theory which he, along with Penrose, had rather a large hand in.

I believe I was disagreeing with him on THAT occasion as well.

Come on, Joba. I'm a Young Earther. I don't believe in the Big Bang theory so how can you accuse me of quoting Hawking to suit my argument?

Look, if you want to regard yourself as nothing more than evolved pond scum that is just fine with me. No skin off my nose. But if you consider that the body (animal, human, insect, plant) is a fully integrated unit; every part working in conjunction with every other part, it's hard to see how it could all come about by random mutations.

The 'Big Bang theory' (or what I undestand of it) is feasable in accordance with God and creation.

Mariska spouted:
I believe I was disagreeing with him on THAT occasion as well.

Come on, Joba. I'm a Young Earther. I don't believe in the Big Bang theory so how can you accuse me of quoting Hawking to suit my argument?

I misunderstood, my apologies. But Zed is right, there is nothing incompatible between big bang theory and the existence of God. In fact when Hawking debunked steady state theory with big bang theory Fred Hoyle, the author of steady state theory and an ardent atheist, objected to it precisely because it permitted the existence of God where steady state did not.

If there is a God....FUCK HIM !!!

theres as much chance of there being a "god"
as there is of me getting a shag tonight...

zero chance....

(sob sob)

joba spouted:


I misunderstood, my apologies. But Zed is right, there is nothing incompatible between big bang theory and the existence of God. In fact when Hawking debunked steady state theory with big bang theory Fred Hoyle, the author of steady state theory and an ardent atheist, objected to it precisely because it permitted the existence of God where steady state did not.

Which shows that people will bend over backwards to find reasons to disbelieve in God.
Apology accepted. Sorry not to get back to